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Post by fishpan on Feb 18, 2017 18:39:06 GMT -5
Snow you know me when Ranty. This is me resigned.
Also with regard to John, you know I've never said that John was due the no.1 dad award. I'm saying that Mary isn't due one either and her plays are out of her Daddy's playbook, a playbook John wouldn't use in the field.
It is also fact that Mary hasn't had the same amount of time to screw up her sons but we also have these facts
She is the woman who went into a fist fight with an angel while knowing she was three months gone when she knew there were two others that could have taken her place. You can't deny that. It is the Kripke years.
She is also now the woman who didn't completely step back from hunting while claiming she wanted normal but didn't prepare her home for a deal she knew was coming due.
Now she has deliberately kept her sons in the dark and used them as a distraction/kill squad on a heist job she herself wasn't sure about, because if she was she wouldn't have called them.
It makes her an interesting character but it also means Mother of the year she ain't going to get and we will have to see how the brothers react to her betrayal here and she knows it. There are many ways to go. Rowena has grown into being somewhat connected to her son and in the next episode her grandson, Mary it is possible they are going to go the other way - have her grow less connected to her sons. It would be interesting to see how they play it. But as I said Mary is slipping more into the Campbell clan tactics, which she really is a member of rather than be a Winchester.
Also with regard to the Knights and Princes, seriously you are putting Knight above Prince. Please sell that to someone else.
As for the spork we never saw a white eyed demon stabbed with the spork so you can't say they'd die because it was during the time they were also trying to push Sam to the dark side, so running or pretending to be more hurt than they were did tie in to ensuring Sam's downward spiral. Both Lilith and Alistair were ended by Sam and his hand. Abaddon going unchallenged with regard to her Apocalypse count down clock. She was doing grunt work separating souls from people and her disappearance did nothing to set the Apocalypse back so her count down clock meant nothing. Azarel on the other hand was trying to get Lucifer to ask for the next step without which no Apocalypse.
Thing is Abaddon is a retcon too so you can't claim Perez's new bit is off base because it can be argued it still ties in. Abaddon hadn't resurfed at the time Crowley gave those weapons to Ramiel. The scene in the last episode was meant to play out as Crowley being shit scared of Ramiel and not only that the only integrity Crowley has ever had was that he honoured his deals and he promised to leave Ramiel alone. He wasn't shit scared of Cain in First Born - he played at that. But even if he went back to Ramiel for the lance (which he couldn't use against the Darkness as it was Angel and not Chuck made) and colt he still would have needed someone to use them to get Abaddon. The plan with the mark and blade, he lets Abaddon know he knows her past and can possibly pull Cain out the bag if required so possibly unsettling her and he gets a superpowered Dean to do his dirty work.
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Post by thesnowleopard on Feb 18, 2017 23:43:46 GMT -5
Never said that Mary was Mother of the Year. Just said it's not necessary for her to be one to be an interesting. In fact, I would argue that it's not a good idea because Mothers of the Year are boring. I just think that if John doesn't get held to that standard to be worthy of having a fanbase, Mary shouldn't, either.
As for Mary being "worse" than John, need I remind you--*again*--that the LoL are John's people?
As for her fighting while three months pregnant, I've always been creeped out by the idea that this makes her a bad mother. Not like anybody else was stepping up to defend her at that moment and she *was* Anna's target. She gets to defend herself.
Besides, Rosalee actively went after a bad Wesen dude in last night's Grimm while pregnant with *three* and nobody in the show called *her* a bad mother.
As for Knights vs. Princes, titles are meaningless. If Perez wanted the Princes to be higher than the Knights, he should have tried harder to make the Princes more powerful. I doubt they'll last more than a few episodes, anyway. Dagon is probably toast after next week.
Of *course* we saw a WED stabbed with the Spork! Alastair got stabbed in "On the Head of a Pin"! And he nearly died from it!
Abaddon wasn't doing grunt work. She was in charge. And it's ridiculous to say that YED ranked above her when he didn't even show up on the scene to do the same work until 15 years after she disappeared.
Crowley claimed he was just playing at being scared by Cain, but it's difficult to believe he was cool as all that when he made sure to bring Dean Winchester along as his bullet shield. And he must have been pretty damned stupid if he wasn't scared, since Cain easily outclassed him in power. For all we know, Crowley was playing at wetting his pants with Ramiel.
It's not significant how Crowley acted around Cain. What's significant is that Cain didn't give two hoots about Crowley.
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Post by cluelessdrifter on Feb 19, 2017 1:06:38 GMT -5
Just a couple of nitpicks. One, I'm not entirely sure why saying that Mary is a Campbell needs to be defended against by saying that the LoL are John's people. John wasn't raised that way, and I don't hold Henry accountable for the BMoL. If we're comparing family history and comparing Samuel and Henry. They're two totally different scenarios. Samuel chose to bring back his daughter over his grandsons, and Henry chose his grandsons over raising his son.
Two, as far as Alistair and Ruby's knife go . . . Sam also used it to stab Alastair in the chest, presumably in the heart, and Alastair's response was to say he'd have to do better than that. When Cas used telekinesis to stab Alastair, that was a hit over the area of his heart, which is why Cas twisted it in further, but even all the way up to the handle, it didn't kill Alistair or come close to it. Alastair mocked Cas, pulled the knife out of his chest, and then attacked Cas. Dean was able to use that knife to draw out Alistair's torture (with holy water and salt), because it couldn't kill him. Sure, it made him spark and hurt him a little the way it did with Abaddon, but that's it.
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Post by thesnowleopard on Feb 19, 2017 1:38:28 GMT -5
Just a couple of nitpicks. One, I'm not entirely sure why saying that Mary is a Campbell needs to be defended against by saying that the LoL are John's people. John wasn't raised that way, and I don't hold Henry accountable for the BMoL. If we're comparing family history and comparing Samuel and Henry. They're two totally different scenarios. Samuel chose to bring back his daughter over his grandsons, and Henry chose his grandsons over raising his son. Two, as far as Alistair and Ruby's knife go . . . Sam also used it to stab Alastair in the chest, presumably in the heart, and Alastair's response was to say he'd have to do better than that. When Cas used telekinesis to stab Alastair, that was a hit over the area of his heart, which is why Cas twisted it in further, but even all the way up to the handle, it didn't kill Alistair or come close to it. Alastair mocked Cas, pulled the knife out of his chest, and then attacked Cas. Dean was able to use that knife to draw out Alistair's torture (with holy water and salt), because it couldn't kill him. Sure, it made him spark and hurt him a little the way it did with Abaddon, but that's it. One, because saying the reason Mary is working with the LoL is because she's a Campbell is basically blaming Mary for all the things her family did. If we're going to do that, we might as well blame John for all the things *his* family did, which include the shady things the MoL did. There was a Brit stationed in the Bunker when the Wicked Witch and Dorothy came through, and the American MoL were no less shady than their British friends, so yeah, they're the same people. If we don't want to blame John for everything his family did, then we shouldn't be blaming Mary for everything her family did, either. It's not as though her family was any shadier than his. And she, at least, made an active effort to get away from them. Two, Dean tortured Alastair with the Spork for half of the episode. It doesn't mean Dean couldn't have killed him with it (in case everyone forgot, Alastair used it to torture Ruby and she definitely could be killed by it). It just means that yes, Alastair could be hurt by it. And if he could be hurt, he could conceivably be killed, especially since once Dean was done torturing him, I'm sure the angels had no intention whatsoever of letting him go--which means they knew they could kill him. It just would take a lot more than one thrust to the lung. It would require more like the blitz attack from behind that Dean did to Tammi in "Malleus Maleficarum." Remember that what was being affected by the Spork was not the demon's body (it was using a host) but the demon's essence itself and the demon's essence was definitely being affected. So, stabbing said demon repeatedly ought to have eventually done the trick by reducing that essence down to nothing. Yes, Abaddon could be hurt but not killed by the Spork, but it was a pretty major plot point that she couldn't be killed any other way but by the First Blade. If she could have been killed by Michael's Lance, then one has to wonder why Crowley (who was very, very motivated to kill her) didn't just go retrieve the thing, give it to Dean, and let Dean have at it. Or get Dean to come with him to Ramiel, use it to kill Ramiel, and then go after Abaddon. It's not as though Crowley has never double-crossed a powerful demon before.
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Post by cluelessdrifter on Feb 19, 2017 2:08:27 GMT -5
Was anyone blaming Mary for what the Campbell family did though? It seemed to me that people were just comparing her to them and saying that she took after her biological family more than the Winchesters.
The two times that have been mentioned, specifically when Sam and Cas both stabbed Alastair, both yielded little more than a few sparks. In fact, Sam stabbed Alastair with Ruby's knife the same way Dean stabbed Abaddon. Same result. And no, just because it could hurt Alastair does not mean that it would kill him . . . again, see Abaddon.
And with this Michael's lance, Crowley didn't go get it from Ramiel, because presumably, he had another way of killing Abaddon with the First Blade, and given his fear of Ramiel and Ramiel's reaction to someone taking the Colt, I'd say that he went the crafty-Crowley way, the safest way option. Anyway, I feel a circular argument coming on. I think I'm tagging out now.
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Post by fishpan on Feb 19, 2017 8:24:22 GMT -5
Never said that Mary was Mother of the Year. Just said it's not necessary for her to be one to be an interesting. In fact, I would argue that it's not a good idea because Mothers of the Year are boring. I just think that if John doesn't get held to that standard to be worthy of having a fanbase, Mary shouldn't, either. As for Mary being "worse" than John, need I remind you--*again*--that the LoL are John's people? As for her fighting while three months pregnant, I've always been creeped out by the idea that this makes her a bad mother. Not like anybody else was stepping up to defend her at that moment and she *was* Anna's target. She gets to defend herself. Besides, Rosalee actively went after a bad Wesen dude in last night's Grimm while pregnant with *three* and nobody in the show called *her* a bad mother. As for Knights vs. Princes, titles are meaningless. If Perez wanted the Princes to be higher than the Knights, he should have tried harder to make the Princes more powerful. I doubt they'll last more than a few episodes, anyway. Dagon is probably toast after next week. Of *course* we saw a WED stabbed with the Spork! Alastair got stabbed in "On the Head of a Pin"! And he nearly died from it! Abaddon wasn't doing grunt work. She was in charge. And it's ridiculous to say that YED ranked above her when he didn't even show up on the scene to do the same work until 15 years after she disappeared. Crowley claimed he was just playing at being scared by Cain, but it's difficult to believe he was cool as all that when he made sure to bring Dean Winchester along as his bullet shield. And he must have been pretty damned stupid if he wasn't scared, since Cain easily outclassed him in power. For all we know, Crowley was playing at wetting his pants with Ramiel. It's not significant how Crowley acted around Cain. What's significant is that Cain didn't give two hoots about Crowley. Snow no, stop twisting in the wind. 1) John never trained with the MoL so doesn't matter if he is 'their people' they never had any dealings so he never hunted or had their tactics. 2) You have have reminded me of nowt with regard to John being their people. Plus seeing how the BMoL stayed out of the Us and French girl high tailed to the US rather than hit London during WW2 the BMoL has bugger all to do with the American MoL that Henry was linked to outside both of them being franchise holders of the name. 3) Mary is Campbell people and I'm just saying she was primarily taught their tactics which she used and it is stupid to think she'd fight like TFW because she was never brought up to hunt like TFW, she has barely hunted with TFW and TFW tactics and I know you don't like me saying it comes from Sam and Dean learning from John and to a lesser extent Bobby seeing how their Dad was the guy they hunted more with. Mary was brought up to fight and hunt like a Campbell and that is what she has done here and we have to get that. That is not blaming her for the things the Campbells did and you know that so don't twist things, you are better than that. 4) John was Anna's target seeing how it was him she got to go to the garage and not Mary. If both were targets she could have just blown up their house end with them in it. As for the rest I am not biting with the how going into the fist fight with Mary knowing she is three months gone is bad because I know you and you just want to be... 5) You have just said that WED got stabbed and didn't die from the spork - therefore spork not effective kill tool against WED or knights Abaddon got stabbed by the spork and she went down first time, again showing not effective in being a end game tool. The Knights and Prince thing as I said sell it to someone else. 6) Cain didn't give too hoots about Crowley because that was never the point, the point was to manipulate Cain to give the mark to Dean and Dean take it and if shitting his pants was a way to go Crowley is the type who would soil his whole Armani collection. Crowley wouldn't go get the lance or colt from Ramiel because it is something 'we have integrity' deal making Crowley wouldn't do on principle because he struck a deal with Ramiel to leave him alone, plus trying to double cross a Prince would make him look weaker once he had dealt with Abaddon and also Crowley was truly scared of Ramiel, not make believe scared like he was of Cain. You know that is what they are going for so it isn't really a retcon it is just an introduction to a weapon that can kill Lucifer and didn't need to be in play before. Plus if Crowley had decided to go get the lance and the colt back to go after Abaddon we know that he'd have needed someone else to wield it because Crowley isn't stupid enough to put himself on the line in a fight if he can get another mug to do it. That is why the set up with the mark; he got Dean to go to Cain because not only would Dean be mug enough to kill Abaddon with Cain's toys which would bring not only a Winchester physically into the fray but Cain's name. So even though Crowley could not be guaranteed to produce Cainhimself, what he did have was a mug with a rep that could be backed up on its own with the ability to wield Cain's weapon and both those could be a help to unsettle Abaddon and her power base before Dean got close to her to kill her. And all the while he'd still be honouring his understanding with the Princes who were left. So I'm now out of this one.
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Post by thesnowleopard on Feb 19, 2017 9:44:52 GMT -5
Was anyone blaming Mary for what the Campbell family did though? It seemed to me that people were just comparing her to them and saying that she took after her biological family more than the Winchesters. The two times that have been mentioned, specifically when Sam and Cas both stabbed Alastair, both yielded little more than a few sparks. In fact, Sam stabbed Alastair with Ruby's knife the same way Dean stabbed Abaddon. Same result. And no, just because it could hurt Alastair does not mean that it would kill him . . . again, see Abaddon. And with this Michael's lance, Crowley didn't go get it from Ramiel, because presumably, he had another way of killing Abaddon with the First Blade, and given his fear of Ramiel and Ramiel's reaction to someone taking the Colt, I'd say that he went the crafty-Crowley way, the safest way option. Anyway, I feel a circular argument coming on. I think I'm tagging out now. Yes, I think saying, "Well, of course Mary is like this. She's a Campbell," is exactly like blaming Mary for what her family did. And I find it curious that we can't do the same thing with John ("He takes after his biological family. That's why he was a cold, calculating bastard") without getting uncomfortable. The Winchester side of the family was not a bunch of saints, not even in comparison to the Campbells. Abaddon couldn't have been killed by Sam's Hand of Ipecac, either, but that did kill Alastair. Alastair could be killed by relatively conventional magical weapons and Abaddon couldn't. Ruby could be tortured by the Spork without being outright killed. Not a stretch at all to say that Alastair could be killed by the Spork if you put your back into it, but the main takeaway is that *any* demon who wasn't a Knight could be killed by a wider variety of weapons than just the First Blade, whereas Knights could not. And that includes the YEDs. Therefore, the Knights were stronger than any other demons. Look, retconning is not expanding on canon. It's directly contradicting canon. Kripke said a while back his Grand Plan consisted of starting with a powerful demon and going up the ladder until we got to the Devil. And that's what we got. But what that means is that Azazel wasn't a hugely powerful demon in the grand scheme of things. He was middle management. So, this upgrading his brothers and sisters into SuperShiny demons is a huge retcon. It ignores the fact that a big part of what made Azazel so memorable and scary was that he used his smarts and his cunning and his charisma to get what he wanted, not his shiny superpowers. He was relatively low on the powers scale, so he couldn't afford to be Big and Stupid. And what did we get for YEDs this week? Big and Stupid. That's a retcon and a really bad one. As for the First Blade, demons have been excoriating Crowley for it ever since and refusing to follow him because he basically handed a massive upgrade to their worst enemy. Yes, I do think that if he'd had another alternative, he would have taken it. The Crowley we know is not that stupid.
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Post by anouck9 on Feb 19, 2017 9:56:06 GMT -5
The Crowley we know is not that stupid. I'll agree on that but I'm afraid that the Crowley ve know will also be retconned. (this thing about how he became King of Hell for exemple) Although I'm not even sure that retcon is the correct word, because in some aspects, they're almost ignoring Carver's era. (yeah, they showed the first blade and the MoC... and the episode makes you wonder why... And Crowley talked about the Darkness, but he apparently watched a different S11 finale than I did, since Chuck was pretty useless...) Urgh... sorry, I must bleach this episode from my mind...
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Post by thesnowleopard on Feb 19, 2017 10:12:10 GMT -5
Never said that Mary was Mother of the Year. Just said it's not necessary for her to be one to be an interesting. In fact, I would argue that it's not a good idea because Mothers of the Year are boring. I just think that if John doesn't get held to that standard to be worthy of having a fanbase, Mary shouldn't, either. As for Mary being "worse" than John, need I remind you--*again*--that the LoL are John's people? As for her fighting while three months pregnant, I've always been creeped out by the idea that this makes her a bad mother. Not like anybody else was stepping up to defend her at that moment and she *was* Anna's target. She gets to defend herself. Besides, Rosalee actively went after a bad Wesen dude in last night's Grimm while pregnant with *three* and nobody in the show called *her* a bad mother. As for Knights vs. Princes, titles are meaningless. If Perez wanted the Princes to be higher than the Knights, he should have tried harder to make the Princes more powerful. I doubt they'll last more than a few episodes, anyway. Dagon is probably toast after next week. Of *course* we saw a WED stabbed with the Spork! Alastair got stabbed in "On the Head of a Pin"! And he nearly died from it! Abaddon wasn't doing grunt work. She was in charge. And it's ridiculous to say that YED ranked above her when he didn't even show up on the scene to do the same work until 15 years after she disappeared. Crowley claimed he was just playing at being scared by Cain, but it's difficult to believe he was cool as all that when he made sure to bring Dean Winchester along as his bullet shield. And he must have been pretty damned stupid if he wasn't scared, since Cain easily outclassed him in power. For all we know, Crowley was playing at wetting his pants with Ramiel. It's not significant how Crowley acted around Cain. What's significant is that Cain didn't give two hoots about Crowley. Snow no, stop twisting in the wind. 1) John never trained with the MoL so doesn't matter if he is 'their people' they never had any dealings so he never hunted or had their tactics. 2) You have have reminded me of nowt with regard to John being their people. Plus seeing how the BMoL stayed out of the Us and French girl high tailed to the US rather than hit London during WW2 the BMoL has bugger all to do with the American MoL that Henry was linked to outside both of them being franchise holders of the name. 3) Mary is Campbell people and I'm just saying she was primarily taught their tactics which she used and it is stupid to think she'd fight like TFW because she was never brought up to hunt like TFW, she has barely hunted with TFW and TFW tactics and I know you don't like me saying it comes from Sam and Dean learning from John and to a lesser extent Bobby seeing how their Dad was the guy they hunted more with. Mary was brought up to fight and hunt like a Campbell and that is what she has done here and we have to get that. That is not blaming her for the things the Campbells did and you know that so don't twist things, you are better than that. 4) John was Anna's target seeing how it was him she got to go to the garage and not Mary. If both were targets she could have just blown up their house end with them in it. As for the rest I am not biting with the how going into the fist fight with Mary knowing she is three months gone is bad because I know you and you just want to be... 5) You have just said that WED got stabbed and didn't die from the spork - therefore spork not effective kill tool against WED or knights Abaddon got stabbed by the spork and she went down first time, again showing not effective in being a end game tool. The Knights and Prince thing as I said sell it to someone else. 6) Cain didn't give too hoots about Crowley because that was never the point, the point was to manipulate Cain to give the mark to Dean and Dean take it and if shitting his pants was a way to go Crowley is the type who would soil his whole Armani collection. Crowley wouldn't go get the lance or colt from Ramiel because it is something 'we have integrity' deal making Crowley wouldn't do on principle because he struck a deal with Ramiel to leave him alone, plus trying to double cross a Prince would make him look weaker once he had dealt with Abaddon and also Crowley was truly scared of Ramiel, not make believe scared like he was of Cain. You know that is what they are going for so it isn't really a retcon it is just an introduction to a weapon that can kill Lucifer and didn't need to be in play before. Plus if Crowley had decided to go get the lance and the colt back to go after Abaddon we know that he'd have needed someone else to wield it because Crowley isn't stupid enough to put himself on the line in a fight if he can get another mug to do it. That is why the set up with the mark; he got Dean to go to Cain because not only would Dean be mug enough to kill Abaddon with Cain's toys which would bring not only a Winchester physically into the fray but Cain's name. So even though Crowley could not be guaranteed to produce Cainhimself, what he did have was a mug with a rep that could be backed up on its own with the ability to wield Cain's weapon and both those could be a help to unsettle Abaddon and her power base before Dean got close to her to kill her. And all the while he'd still be honouring his understanding with the Princes who were left. So I'm now out of this one. It doesn't matter whether John trained with them or not (especially since his mother didn't exactly disappear on him, too, and I'm sure Henry left contingency plans, so there was a lot of continuity in his upbringing there). It's not as though he was a wonderful guy all on his own. Saying that Mary is not like a Winchester really ought to be a compliment because John's reaction to the supernatural world was anything but healthy. Besides, if we're really going to split hairs, the "Winchesters" is a family unit that John and Mary formed together and it belongs to them equally along with their two sons. By the way, let's stay respectful, please. Disagreeing with you is not "twisting in the wind." I'm just not convinced by your arguments, especially since they're getting a bit emotional in the attack. The LoL and the MoL are the same people. Britain was isolated from the U.S. early in WWII. Not really a stretch that they weren't able to communicate as much at the time, but that was a unique situation. If you look at the Bunker and its big old map, it's pretty obvious the MoL were worldwide, which means that, yes, they and the LoL were the same thing. The LoL probably don't want to admit that the main reason they hadn't come back to the U.S. before now was because they were afraid of what had gotten the American branch. Notice how their supposed magical lockdown on the UK postdates the fall of the MoL in the U.S. by a decade. Look, as far as the Mary and John thing, John was no prince among men, so let's please stop putting him on a pedestal. He did poorly, much worse than she is now, as a parent. We also don't know what he might have found of her stuff. I always thought his learning curve was remarkably steep, especially since his wife was secretly a Hunter. And like it or not, the MoL are his biological family, so criticizing her for working with them and saying she'd only do so because she's a Campbell, when he didn't do any better on his own, is just messed up. It's not as though John would have been anything but totally ruthless with that Bunker's resources, and using his sons to mine them, if he'd found them. Mary was always Anna's ultimate target, especially once Anna found out Mary was pregnant. It's a Terminator kind of situation. It's not as though Anna would have killed John and left Mary alone. Also, it's pretty icky to say that Mary should have just left the person she loved most in the world to get killed, despite having the skills to save him, because she was in a "delicate condition." Arf. As far as the Knights and the Princes, it's pretty simple--Princes can be killed by all sorts of conventional magical weapons. High-level ones? Sure. But doable. Knights can only be killed by the First Blade--i.e., only by a Mark-bearer. Also, Knights have powers even the WEDs didn't have. Therefore, the Knights were more powerful than the Princes. I mean, if Dean still had the Mark, there's no way Ramiel could have stood up to him. Even this week, the only reason the Brothers were caught so off-guard was because they went in on bad intel. The whole point of Azazel's storyline was that he used his smarts to win, not his shiny superpowers. Retconning it to say that he and his brothers and sisters were superawesomepowerful reduces him as a villain. It's as simple as that. I'm snorting in laughter at the idea that Crowley has "integrity." Yeah, that's why he's screwed over every single person he's ever met. Trust me. He'd have found some loophole to justify stealing back the Lance. This is Crowley we're talking about.
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Post by thesnowleopard on Feb 19, 2017 10:14:40 GMT -5
The Crowley we know is not that stupid. I'll agree on that but I'm afraid that the Crowley ve know will also be retconned. (this thing about how he became King of Hell for exemple) Although I'm not even sure that retcon is the correct word, because in some aspects, they're almost ignoring Carver's era. (yeah, they showed the first blade and the MoC... and the episode makes you wonder why... And Crowley talked about the Darkness, but he apparently watched a different S11 finale than I did, since Chuck was pretty useless...) Urgh... sorry, I must bleach this episode from my mind... It might be not so much ignoring the Carver era as Dabb having his own take on the show. Which is something I feared would happen when I heard he would become the new showrunner. I've read those Supernatural comics. I already knew I wasn't gonna like his own take on the show.
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Post by anouck9 on Feb 19, 2017 10:24:02 GMT -5
It might be not so much ignoring the Carver era as Dabb having his own take on the show. Which is something I feared would happen when I heard he would become the new showrunner. I've read those Supernatural comics. I already knew I wasn't gonna like his own take on the show. I've never read the comics (I already wasn't a fan of a lot of his episodes so I didn't want to chance it). What's his take in it?
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Post by cluelessdrifter on Feb 19, 2017 11:54:58 GMT -5
Was anyone blaming Mary for what the Campbell family did though? It seemed to me that people were just comparing her to them and saying that she took after her biological family more than the Winchesters. The two times that have been mentioned, specifically when Sam and Cas both stabbed Alastair, both yielded little more than a few sparks. In fact, Sam stabbed Alastair with Ruby's knife the same way Dean stabbed Abaddon. Same result. And no, just because it could hurt Alastair does not mean that it would kill him . . . again, see Abaddon. And with this Michael's lance, Crowley didn't go get it from Ramiel, because presumably, he had another way of killing Abaddon with the First Blade, and given his fear of Ramiel and Ramiel's reaction to someone taking the Colt, I'd say that he went the crafty-Crowley way, the safest way option. Anyway, I feel a circular argument coming on. I think I'm tagging out now. Yes, I think saying, "Well, of course Mary is like this. She's a Campbell," is exactly like blaming Mary for what her family did. And I find it curious that we can't do the same thing with John ("He takes after his biological family. That's why he was a cold, calculating bastard") without getting uncomfortable. The Winchester side of the family was not a bunch of saints, not even in comparison to the Campbells. Abaddon couldn't have been killed by Sam's Hand of Ipecac, either, but that did kill Alastair. Alastair could be killed by relatively conventional magical weapons and Abaddon couldn't. Ruby could be tortured by the Spork without being outright killed. Not a stretch at all to say that Alastair could be killed by the Spork if you put your back into it, but the main takeaway is that *any* demon who wasn't a Knight could be killed by a wider variety of weapons than just the First Blade, whereas Knights could not. And that includes the YEDs. Therefore, the Knights were stronger than any other demons. Look, retconning is not expanding on canon. It's directly contradicting canon. Kripke said a while back his Grand Plan consisted of starting with a powerful demon and going up the ladder until we got to the Devil. And that's what we got. But what that means is that Azazel wasn't a hugely powerful demon in the grand scheme of things. He was middle management. So, this upgrading his brothers and sisters into SuperShiny demons is a huge retcon. It ignores the fact that a big part of what made Azazel so memorable and scary was that he used his smarts and his cunning and his charisma to get what he wanted, not his shiny superpowers. He was relatively low on the powers scale, so he couldn't afford to be Big and Stupid. And what did we get for YEDs this week? Big and Stupid. That's a retcon and a really bad one. As for the First Blade, demons have been excoriating Crowley for it ever since and refusing to follow him because he basically handed a massive upgrade to their worst enemy. Yes, I do think that if he'd had another alternative, he would have taken it. The Crowley we know is not that stupid. While I have said I would tag out on the discussion about demons, because I have laid out my arguments and anyone who is impartial is free to come to their own conclusions, I do take exception with the implication that anyone who doesn't bow at the altar of Mary must be further scrutinized for gender bias. It can't simply be that Mary is a Campbell, was raised by them, and therefore has an ethos that comes from that upbringing. It can't simply be that people are saying that how she has behaved is more Campbell-like. No, it must mean that Mary is being blamed for her entire family's misdeeds. Now, if we're comparing Mary and John's background, something that was introduced into the argument with the not-so-subtle intent of claiming some kind of misogyny against Mary because John is not being held to the same standard, then I would counter by saying that John's 'people' were Henry and Millie, not the entire Men of Letters organization. That would be a fair comparison, and we also saw that Henry was something of a rebel in the Men of Letters. I also don't think it's fair to say that John did worse as parent than Mary is now. Sam and Dean were children when John 'raised' them into adulthood. They are adults now. No parenting required. I will say that John was no saint, but Mary certainly wasn't either. She left John wholly unprepared for what followed her death. Did he take that and do the worst thing possible with it? Yeah, he did, but his set up wasn't great. I also don't think that it is fair to take John's learning curve and give that all to Mary by saying that John must have found her things. His learning curve was steep, because he sacrificed time with his children in favor of learning how to hunt. I'm not saying that he didn't learn sometime down the road that his wife was a hunter. He clearly knew the dates that other women, including Mary's friend on the farm, had first been visited by Azazel, but I don't think that it was something he learned until years later. On the topic of Mary fighting with Anna, I am in full agreement. Anna was coming for her, and she had to defend herself. I have no qualms with the way in which she did it.
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Post by Mystique on Feb 19, 2017 16:32:05 GMT -5
While I have said I would tag out on the discussion about demons, because I have laid out my arguments and anyone who is impartial is free to come to their own conclusions, I do take exception with the implication that anyone who doesn't bow at the altar of Mary must be further scrutinized for gender bias. It can't simply be that Mary is a Campbell, was raised by them, and therefore has an ethos that comes from that upbringing. It can't simply be that people are saying that how she has behaved is more Campbell-like. No, it must mean that Mary is being blamed for her entire family's misdeeds. Now, if we're comparing Mary and John's background, I also don't think it's fair to say that John did worse as parent than Mary is now. On the topic of Mary fighting with Anna, I am in full agreement. Anna was coming for her, and she had to defend herself. I have no qualms with the way in which she did it.
I do not believe just stating Mary's heritage was the intent in that statement. Mary is her own person, saying she's a Campbell in the way in which it was stated was just like writing her off and it was used derogatorily.
I do not think anyone who likes Mary, or finds her interesting and wants to see her explored more, is asking anyone to bow down at her alter. People can like or dislike Mary. Everyone is entitled to their opinions.
I do not think that comparing any of them will win anyone an argument. Why? Because, opinions. All the characters are fallible. However I will say that John and Bobby have both been explored, whereas Mary has not. So to come to ultimate conclusions about who she is, is premature.
I cannot fathom why some need to forcefully push to make sure others agree with them, discussion and an exchange of ideas is one thing, but that is entirely another altogether.
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Post by cluelessdrifter on Feb 19, 2017 17:43:53 GMT -5
I do not believe just stating Mary's heritage was the intent in that statement. Mary is her own person, saying she's a Campbell in the way in which it was stated was just like writing her off and it was used derogatorily.
I do not think anyone who likes Mary, or finds her interesting and wants to see her explored more, is asking anyone to bow down at her alter. People can like or dislike Mary. Everyone is entitled to their opinions.
I do not think that comparing any of them will win anyone an argument. Why? Because, opinions. All the characters are fallible. However I will say that John and Bobby have both been explored, whereas Mary has not. So to come to ultimate conclusions about who she is, is premature.
I cannot fathom why some need to forcefully push to make sure others agree with them, discussion and an exchange of ideas is one thing, but that is another altogether.
It is derogatory if you dislike the comparison between she and her father because of how she played this particular mission for the Colt. I think she played it the way Samuel would have, therefore, I don't think that it was derogatory. I think it was accurate. Just like I think it is accurate that both Dean and Sam are reflections of Mary in some ways. What I find more derogatory is calling her a duplicitous cow or a bitch. I would find Mary interesting if there was more thought being put into her character. I don't have any faith that this is going to play out any differently than Cas or Crowley will find out that Mary is working with the BMoL, it will get back to Dean and Sam, Dean will be upset about it, and then Sam will say they need to hear her out. We'll get 30 seconds of her voicing her reasons, and then that's it with an uneasy truce once again reintroduced after the fallout, because they'll need to work against a 'Big Bad' together. She is merely there for drama's sake at this point. When she was re-introduced, I was hoping for a lot more. I was hoping for more backstory, a rich character, one who is not perfect, one who is flawed. We're seeing the flaws, and that's fine, but I need more, like the details of her backstory aside from what we've seen so far. I need to know more about what she did in those 10 years after her deal was made. Did she go hunting for at least information on Azazel during that time? We know she went to Canada to tie up loose ends from her days as a hunter. What other hunts did she do? What did she tell John when she did these hunts? Did she go one of the many times she and John had fights, and he would leave for days on end? These are the kinds of things that would help flesh her out a bit more. I'd also like to be shown instead of told about her flaws and the reasoning for the decisions she has made, not just with the BMoL, but in general. If she's around for a while, which I hope she is, because if she isn't, then it seems like a waste of her character, but if she is, then maybe we'll get that. How long have Cas and Crowley been around, and we're still getting new background on them, so I know it doesn't have to come all at once, but with Mary, it seems like they're spinning their tires on it given how important of a character she is on this show. I had hoped that she would bring more hunters into the show, and she is. That's one positive. As for the John vs. Mary thing, there is no way to debate it and say that one is better than the other, because as I have said already, they're opposite extremes and both are harmful. Debating Samuel vs. Henry? I could do that all day, because I think one was clearly better. Maybe that's because I'm going to side with the guy who gave up everything to help the heroes of the show over the one who chose to screw them over in an effort to bring his daughter back. If they'd wanted Samuel to be sympathetic, they could have done it, because it's easy to make a father grieving the loss of his daughter sympathetic. That's just not the way it played out. Arguing a point should be that. Arguing a point, not insinuating something negative about someone else. I was annoyed because of a single sentence. This one: "And I find it curious that we can't do the same thing with John ("He takes after his biological family. That's why he was a cold, calculating bastard") without getting uncomfortable."
Sometimes that's all it takes. I felt the need to defend myself. That's what personal attacks do to the exchange of ideas. The ideas get lost.
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Post by thesnowleopard on Feb 19, 2017 18:29:39 GMT -5
I'm not interested in playing the Victim Olympics. If you're offended that I'm pointing out a possible bias, perhaps you could take a moment to consider my (and, apparently, Mystique's) irritation at having to write a dissertation on why I like a certain character and why this always seems to involve female characters a lot more than male ones. I've got other things to do this weekend, y'know?
As it happens, I like Mary. As is. Warts and all. And I'm getting quite tired of having to defend that position every single time I make it. Dislike her all you want, but please stop jumping all over anyone who does.
Also, I keep seeing claims that Mary is acting the way Samuel would in the same situation, but I'm not seeing any convincing proof. What part of selling his grandsons off to be eaten by Ghouls makes Samuel like Mary? Samuel made his deal with Crowley at the expense of his grandsons and his cousins to get Mary resurrected. I don't see how that's at all the same as Mary dealing with the LoL to make her family ultimately safer. Hell, *Sam* called them up earlier this season for help and he did it on the sly, too. And Dean has had Crowley on his leash and speed dial for years. Mary isn't doing a thing Sam, Dean or John hasn't ever done--a lot. In that respect, she is a Winchester through and through.
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