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Post by anouck9 on May 23, 2017 18:14:31 GMT -5
I'm not sure what's going on with Mark and Ruth, but they both don't seem very thrilled with the showrunners right now. Neither does Jensen. I don't think he liked season 12 at all, but he was too distracted to care. My one big concern about the rumors that he's not directing is that they may indicate he's becoming more permanently disengaged from the show. Which isn't a good sign. I don't agree that any of these deaths compare to Charlie's. Charlie got eight episodes over four seasons and all of them featured her heavily. Even if you don't think the show should have cut loose a character that was tanking the ratings like that, she got an entire half-season of set-up to her death. The only one who got more swan song was Bobby. Crowley and Rowena got summarily killed off in a rushed episode that included the death of one other major character (that reportedly won't stick) and the death of a more minor character (Kelly) that nobody cared about. And Eileen got killed off in a freakin' teaser. That's just...ugh. Jensen not directing... Yeah, that may be that he's disengaged. And also that the TPTB are not making any effort on his behalf, planning-wise. Neither is a good sign. When I talked about Charlie, I meant the reaction of the cast to the killing of her character. I think that we would hear them more about Mark if there was bad blood. I'm on the fence with Crowley, because while I think that his character was dumbed down this season, and his death rushed in a crappy episode, I didn't really see any other option for his character. There was not really anywhere alse to go (becoming human may be? But it wouldn't jive either I think) Rowena, now, there's was a lot to do with her still, so I'm pissed. What worries me, is that I have the impression that Dabb and Co are indeed making the spin-off WITHIN the show, by replacing the cast with their own (lame, crappy, insert your own comment) characters and "mythos" (if we use the term really really loosely). That's why I also fear an Alternate!Castiel for S13 (that's not like they're gonna worry that there's no reason an Alternate!Castiel would look like Jimmy Novak). And I can't see any other issue that all that backfiring pretty badly. And I wnat this show to end on his terms and with a bang, damnit, not with a cancellation...
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paro
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Post by paro on May 23, 2017 18:49:12 GMT -5
In the finale, Mark P was again listed as a regular. If he's going to continue to be a regular into S13 (which sounds like a safe bet at this point), maybe Mark S was let go to accommodate. I doubt the show has the budget to pay for 3 regulars, especially when who knows how much Mark P asked for his contract.
But I agree - it doesn't sound as if either Mark or Ruth was happy with whatever is going on BTS.
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Post by thesnowleopard on May 23, 2017 19:15:38 GMT -5
I think it would be an absolutely huge mistake to make Lucifer a regular. He's already played out beyond belief as a recurring villain.
I could easily see Mark S. not being thrilled about that. I'm not and I didn't get fired from my job (assuming that's what really happened to Mark S.).
Not seeing where Mark P. was listed as a regular, though.
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paro
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Post by paro on May 23, 2017 19:59:30 GMT -5
Not seeing where Mark P. was listed as a regular, though. The credits now read: Jared, Jensen, Mark Sheppard, Mark Pellegrino, and Misha Collins. Guest starring....everyone else (Sam Smith, Ruth, etc). It's been like that since 12.15.
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Post by thesnowleopard on May 23, 2017 20:17:02 GMT -5
Where? On IMdB? Completely meaningless. On SuperWiki? Also meaningless. In the show credits? Reflects how much he's in the episode, really. Not so much actually being a regular.
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Post by onali on May 23, 2017 21:52:29 GMT -5
He also said he wouldn't be attending the cons in 2018.
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luxshine
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Post by luxshine on May 23, 2017 23:38:43 GMT -5
I just finished the episode and, as big of a Dean fan as I am (and boy, did Dean got shoved to the side HARD even as they accidentally keep making him badass because no other human has gone against Lucifer without magic aid and survived, TWICE), and as a big of a Cas fan as I am (that's not sticking, no way), I am really apalled at what the showrunners did to Crowley. Had Crowley been the only death of the episode... hell, even with Rowena's death, as stupid as it was, and had they kept that wonderful line Mark wrote for his end? His death woudl've been an epic fudge you to Lucifer, and to the whole stupid storyline. And it would've been glorious.
As it was? It ended as an afterthought just to make it sure that the bibros were happy and that there was no more characters who were obviously more inclined to work with Dean than with the Super Sue that is Sam now. If Mark is really pissed at TPTB? I don't blame him.
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Post by Mystique on May 24, 2017 7:01:33 GMT -5
He also said he wouldn't be attending the cons in 2018. I hope he'll reconsider that somewhere down the line, and attend at least some of the creation cons again as well.
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Post by Mystique on May 24, 2017 8:12:35 GMT -5
I just finished the episode and, as big of a Dean fan as I am (and boy, did Dean got shoved to the side HARD even as they accidentally keep making him badass because no other human has gone against Lucifer without magic aid and survived, TWICE), and as a big of a Cas fan as I am (that's not sticking, no way), I am really apalled at what the showrunners did to Crowley. Had Crowley been the only death of the episode... hell, even with Rowena's death, as stupid as it was, and had they kept that wonderful line Mark wrote for his end? His death woudl've been an epic fudge you to Lucifer, and to the whole stupid storyline. And it would've been glorious. As it was? It ended as an afterthought just to make it sure that the bibros were happy and that there was no more characters who were obviously more inclined to work with Dean than with the Super Sue that is Sam now. If Mark is really pissed at TPTB? I don't blame him. I hope you're right, I really do, but I have little faith in it. Even though we know Misha will be in season 13, it is uncertain for how long, and who in fact he will be playing. I do hope we see true Cas again at least once more, but the bolded in your last paragraph is what I fear is most likely certain to last quite a while.
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Post by thesnowleopard on May 24, 2017 10:12:34 GMT -5
We actually know that if Misha leaves-leaves, it won't be before episode 16 because that's the animated ep and he's in it.
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Post by Mystique on May 24, 2017 12:21:48 GMT -5
True, but that has already been pre-recorded, and it unfortunately does not help me feel confident in him remaining with this show or having ample enough screen-time up until then. Given who's show-running, what we endured this past season, recent events and the direction we seem to be heading, I no longer feel assured of anything about this show anymore. I do, however, truly hope you are also right.
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Post by thesnowleopard on May 24, 2017 13:44:51 GMT -5
Which is why I said leave-leave. If there's a last episode with Castiel, it won't be before 13.16.
Also, Misha basically confirmed it meant he was coming back for season 13, though he was cagey about in what form.
Meanwhile, Mark Sheppard is burning bridges on Twitter and making it fairly clear it wasn't an amicable split. And Ruth Connell doesn't seem too happy, either.
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luxshine
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Post by luxshine on May 24, 2017 13:53:43 GMT -5
They've had their attempts to get rid of Cas before, and they always back out at the last minute. Not only that but... most if not all of the recurring cast members who get killed for real say goodbye to the audience through social media. Misha did it in season 7 when he thought Cas was really dead (and at the time, he was. It was a combination of ratings/fan support what got him back). So far, Mark has said goodbye, but Misha hasn't. There was, as far as I can read, no mention of Cas's death in Jib once Jared let out that Cas was in the animated episode.
So either Jared is a machiavelical mastermind who knows how to play the audience and Cas is ONLY in that episode, and Misha is under contract not to say he was let go until after 13x16... Or Cas's death is not permanent (Let's be honest here... even if we got an alt!Cas, I give the writers 3 episodes before they forget it's an alt!Cas that shouldn't have the same openess with the Winchesters than the original Cas and thus for the casual viewer it'd make the point moot. Hell, once the rift was introduced... and HOW the rift was introduced... it gives our sometimes barely better than fanfiction staff writers the chance to say that it was alt!CAs the one who got killed, even if that makes absolutely NO logical sense.)
And well, given how Jared acts in general, I am not giving him the benefit of the doubt about being a machiavelical mastermind.
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Post by thesnowleopard on May 24, 2017 14:26:22 GMT -5
The second they introduced that stupid rift, all bets were off the table as far as permanent deaths. I immediately thought of how they brought back Iolaus in Hercules.
That crap may work for The Flash, but it was a mistake to introduce it on Supernatural. It seriously messes with the canon in ways even the Nepotism Duo haven't yet reached. And I mean crap like "Are Chuck and Amara in charge of all these multiverses, too, and if so, why aren't there any where they both died?" not just "If we can just visit alternate universes, now, what's the point of having canon?"
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luxshine
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Post by luxshine on May 24, 2017 15:33:47 GMT -5
The second they introduced that stupid rift, all bets were off the table as far as permanent deaths. I immediately thought of how they brought back Iolaus in Hercules. That crap may work for The Flash, but it was a mistake to introduce it on Supernatural. It seriously messes with the canon in ways even the Nepotism Duo haven't yet reached. And I mean crap like "Are Chuck and Amara in charge of all these multiverses, too, and if so, why aren't there any where they both died?" not just "If we can just visit alternate universes, now, what's the point of having canon?" Oh, Chuck, THIS so much! I told my cousin (we watched the finale together) that I didn't get why a horde of archangels didn't show up the SECOND our Lucifer stepped through the rift because, hello? Two Lucifers? THAT's bad. I mean, there shouldn't have been a reason for Crowley to die since Lucifer would've been too busy fighting at the very least a full powered non-vesseled Michael, and a full powered non-crazy Raphael. PLUS another Lucifer who woudln't have taken nicely to have competition. (although I do wonder HOW the apocalypse started without the two true vessels, but I digress) They could've even left Crowley's death in, but there was no way Lucifer could have survived a ton of angel bullets, an angel blade to the chest AND an attack from a ton of angels. Of course, that meant not killing Cas. And I have the feeling there was a memo about killing every ally of the Winchesters they could. Also, is it me or Lucifer has now Joker's immunity? Because I don't get how he survived a ton of angel bullets AND an angel blade to the chest without it breaking his vessel just a little. Guardar
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