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Post by thesnowleopard on Feb 18, 2017 2:30:01 GMT -5
Agree.
I also happen to like Mary. I find her storyline interesting, and like that she is as fallible as everyone else on this show. I wish the show would actually integrate her more as well as more effectively. Instead it seems, to me, they are relegating the character to just be used for conflict and as fodder for the other storylines Dabb seems determined to push full steam ahead on, the BMoL and Luci & his spawn, which I couldn't be less interested in. SMH *Shrug*
Yeah, this. I find her an interesting character who gels well with TFW. When the writers have bothered to do anything between her and her sons, Castiel and even Crowley, she brings some new material and a spark, especially with Castiel. And I agree that it's frustrating to see them waste so much of that on pointless wangst and the worst storylines of the season like the LoL and that stupid "devil baby mama drama," as Dean put it last week. I'd rather see her bonding with Dean and getting less arm's-length with Sam, or hunting with Castiel. Mind you, I get why people don't like Mary as a person. She's emotionally distant, cold, wary, and independent almost to the point of sociopathy. But that's accurate for someone who was raised in the Life. Her becoming a mother didn't mean she could completely change her nature. I'll bet that if she'd lived longer the first time round, this is what she'd have been like by the time the Brothers were teens (can you imagine Dean sneaking out after her and discovering hunting that way? Whoo). I just wanted to point out that John and Bobby were pretty unlikeable as people, too, but they were still fun characters who added to the story and were interesting to watch. And there are fans who are Team John or Team Bobby. There's a lot more to a character than being likeable, but unfortunately, female characters usually get stuck in box if they're not antagonists, which is only one reason why high-riding bitch characters are so often a good time had by many audience members. I guess you could say I was always more Team Mary and hoped they would bring her back and explore her as a Hunter. Even with her faults, she's a huge step up from both John and Bobby in that at least she's not abusive. Neglectful, maybe, and distant, but not intentionally mean. And I think with a little better writing (as happened with Rowena, from "The Werther Project" onward), she would make a good permanent addition since it means they can return to a "Bobby" or "John" character without reducing the Brothers to "boys" again. I don't want them to get rid of her. I just want them to improve the writing for her. Every single recurring female character they've ever had got a rocky intro and only improved later. It's not different for Mary.
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Post by fishpan on Feb 18, 2017 7:17:24 GMT -5
Sorry Snow but as much as John was a crap father, and I admit he was and yes Dean was convinced that John would tear him a new one and things were so screwed up that admitting he was proud of his son was a sign of demonic possession, but the vamp he shot had Sam in a head lock causing Dean to put down his machete. The test fire was a by product of saving his boy. Bobby shooting Ruby on the other hand was a test fire of the colt.
Also with John, the boys knew they were going after the gun from the start of that hunt. It wasn't until Sam blew that gasket and Dean backed him up did they discover why the gun was important but they knew the gun was the reason for going after the vampires. They knew the objective but not the importance of it until they demanded it. With Mary they never even knew the gun was in play even when Ramiel was demanding Mary put his toy back.
Now I'm not saying Mary is deliberately being mean to the boys but John bullied them into hunts, the boys now probably would be more immune to John's type of tactics. Mary though, just down right manipulated them and Wally into a hunt that got Wally killed and if Crowley hadn't been there would have killed Cas, without all the info and them not knowing the real objective. That is what Samuel Campbell would have done. And why because she thinks the MoL are shit hot? Really? Because I see no evidence that she is doing it to be on the inside to find out why they are in the US because if she was she wouldn't be acting as chief recruiter for them and that from Wally's talk is what she is - their chief recruiter using the Winchester rep.
You may say I am over thinking it but the evidence is there, she drags Wally into the hunt purely because he is inexperienced because without him, Sam and Dean would expect every i crossed and t dotted something she knows they won't if she plays the semi helpless mom card. Because Sam barely does check, he barely does any real research outside scanning the files in the diner from what we see. Why? Because solely mom asking for help means ensuring things need to be checked. Mom asking for backup because she is saying her help is a bit green well - TFW guard down a little and family bonding time!!!!! Mom's obviously done enough to determine she may not be able to handle it herself so she's done the research enough to be trustworthy because she knows cavalry is needed so less need to ask who is this demon, why is he just sitting in a house in the middle of nowhere, if he is off the grid why??
Then what does Mary do, leaves Cas to go get her objective when she really doesn't know what the guys are truly facing because if she was confident Ketch's info was all correct and it was just a demon she wouldn't have needed to really call them in the first place.
Also when Ramiel is kicking Dean's ass why use the angel blade and not the gun that could probably kill him to save her first born? He's a prince of hell, an angel blade is unlikely to work on him. The only reasons not to is - Mary is a bitch who puts her mission over her sons or Mary stashed the gun before they went to the barn. Which means she put it in that car. The only damn thing she had to protect her and Cas and she deliberately left it in the car.
I am also not saying that it isn't an interesting angle but there has to be a pay off because you may see it as John using the gun to save Sam as a test firing but we just saw Mary withhold the gun when her sons were in danger, they keep saying Mary isn't like what they expected and they can't expect her to be apple pie etc. But what she did that isn't to do with trusting her boys to be capable of handling it, that is withholding both information and a weapon that could have ended that fight in an instant.
The moves Mary made in this episode are all Campbell moves and not ones from the Winchester family playbook.
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Post by thesnowleopard on Feb 18, 2017 7:51:45 GMT -5
I don't really see how John was any better than Mary and in, fact, I think he was far worse. He *said* he was staying away from his sons to protect them, but what it really looked like was ditching them except when he needed willing tools and then giving an absolute minimum of information necessary to get them to do what he wanted. And this isn't even comparing to Mary now she's back. I always thought he was like that and "Dead Man's Blood," the first episode where we get a real look at him and his modus operandi, is a true nadir for him.
At least Mary tried to find them when they went on radio silence for too long and Sam had to replace Dean's phone immediately so she wouldn't worry. Plus, not screaming at them or shoving them around is a major plus to me.
I also don't buy the comparison to her father. Samuel didn't just lie to them. He was openly contemptuous of Dean, trash-talked Sam behind Sam's back, and couldn't sell out his grandsons to Crowley fast enough. He also sucked at playing well with other Hunters, even before he died the first time, which Mary clearly isn't.
Mary may be a bit detached and ambivalent about how to deal with her sons on a day-to-day basis, but she made it pretty clear to Retch that she wouldn't brook anything bad being done to the Brothers or to Castiel, which is the exact opposite of how Samuel acted. She stated outright that the LoL harming her family, either by action or intentional inaction, was a deal-breaker. In fact, I don't think enough has been made in the fandom of the fact that Mary not only is more positive about Castiel than either Samuel was or John would have been, but she herself rescues Castiel from Ramiel after Ramiel stabs him. There's a reason why he considers her worth saving.
Pretty sure an angel blade would have worked just fine on Ramiel. He wasn't *that* special. As for not using the Colt (and I'll grant you that this should actually have been shown in the episode), according to Sam Smith, Mary didn't use it because it didn't have any bullets. And it's useless without special bullets.
Mary's spikey, and I'll certainly grant you she can be unlikeable, but she's her own brand of "difficult." She's not her father. And she's not a more manipulative version of her husband, either.
Also, her working with the LoL doesn't actually make John's side of the family look better. The Men of Letters *are* his side of the family and as we've seen, they are treacherous, incestuously self-absorbed, bigoted dicks. The Campbell side of the family is the wild-card Hunters.
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Post by thesnowleopard on Feb 18, 2017 7:57:47 GMT -5
Fyi, don't feel you can't disagree just because I'm a mod. I'm just putting forward the Team Mary side of the equation and you are welcome to argue Team John to your heart's content (though I'd prefer we not go down the whole "But it wasn't really abuse" rabbit hole).
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Post by fishpan on Feb 18, 2017 8:25:00 GMT -5
Snow I'm not arguing the abuse angle I'm not and I'm getting you are arguing Team Mary.
But day to day, John was worse but in the field John was better as he informed his sons what they were after. Mary didn't. That is the difference. Calling them and playing games on the phone isn't important when it comes to actually being in the field. Not giving your team the pertinent information about what is happening put TFW's lives on the line.
You may say Ketch didn't give her the info and she got pissed but she knew she didn't have all the info because she knew it was not going to be a simple job because she called TFW in and told Wally he was there to make sure they came and didn't ask question why she asked. She wasn't using the boys as a recruiting tool for the MoL where it was a simple job and Wally could wander off and say he'd been on a hunt where the MoL hadn't just delivered the info but the whole Winchester clan and an angel as backup without the guys realising. She called them in because she knew she needed them to be a kill squad while she pulled a safe heist.
That meant their tactics were off and put their lives on the line because while she completed her primary mission she didn't have their backs, which was to get the gun out of the safe and to the MoL, and they thought she did. John didn't pull that one in the field when he was physically there - getting him there is another story. but when he was there he didn't let his sons piss in the wind.
What she did was basically pull a Dillion out of Predator and we know how Dutch felt about that - fucking royally pissed off. But this wasn't a life long friend lying to TFW this was their mother and her response - blame Ketch. Ketch hadn't been the one to pick up a phone and call TFW in, Mary had. Cas' wound on her, Wally's death on her because neither would have been there if she had told the whole team the truth about going for the colt and knew the manner she had called them in wouldn't cause them to think she was holding anything back from them.
Because if the guys knew they were going after the colt they would probably done more research as someone holding it and keeping it hidden when Abaddon and the darkness were causing havoc would have been a more major power player than they expected. Which means tactics and calls would have been different and Wally would have been benched and if they got the colt, no way in hell Sam and Dean were turning it over to the MoL and Mary knew that. She knew that if Wally wasn't there or if she had told them that TFW would have gone into their usual mode which was essentially Dean calling the battle plays once Sam had confirmed what research they had on that demon. It would have meant the gun was out of her hands.
As for an angel blade possibly working - Ramiel was a Prince of hell. That blade type did not work on a Knight of hell, a lower rank of demon so when it was clear they were facing a prince, well the only thing we've seen take out a Prince is the colt and not only that when she knew it was a Prince he was flinging her first born around the room like he was a rag doll and she still didn't use the thing.
Hell even Lilth had to prepare herself specially to be killed by the demon knife seeing how the altar and the prep she went through to be killed by Sam and Lucifer didn't seem to give two hoots about it when he got out of the cage.
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Post by fishpan on Feb 18, 2017 8:38:20 GMT -5
Plus snow mod or not - when have you and I never been honest with each other?
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Post by thesnowleopard on Feb 18, 2017 8:42:36 GMT -5
Hmm, well...except for the part where John let his sons run interference and distraction for him--without telling them--for the better part of a year. That was a real dick move.
Princes of Hell are not higher-ranking or more powerful than Knights of Hell. I know the writers (Davy Perez, bless his heart, was not the one who should have been given this script; it was way above his pay grade) are playing with the new-and-shiny and didn't make this very clear, but the simple upshot is that Knights can *only* be killed by the First Blade and *maybe* an archangel smiting, and Cain had red-smiting power, whereas Princes are just souped-up BEDs. Lots of things can kill them--the Michael Lance, archangel blades, archangel smitings, the Colt, Amara, Sam hopped up on demon blood, probably angel blades, too. Even stabbing them enough times with the Spork might do it in a pinch.
The Colt couldn't kill Cain and probably couldn't kill Abaddon, either. It could kill Ramiel. WEDs weren't actually invulnerable to the Spork. You just had to get them exactly in the right spot. And the episode itself stated Princes were below WEDs.
Lilith didn't go through all that preparation because it was the only way she could be killed. She did it because it was necessary to make her the final Seal and because it put Sam at ground zero for where Lucifer came out. She was vulnerable at other times, too.
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Post by thesnowleopard on Feb 18, 2017 8:46:29 GMT -5
Plus snow mod or not - when have you and I never been honest with each other? Heh. Just sayin'. As long as people follow the rules and don't make it personal, they can wank to their heart's content. If threads get too repetitive, we can always move 'em to the Dead Horse Discussion Agency board and let 'em continue there. Let's face it--people are most chatty when they're arguing, not agreeing with each other.
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Post by fishpan on Feb 18, 2017 11:14:49 GMT -5
But what happened to we are not going into the John being abusive roundabout? And also responding to most of my post about Mary's dick moves in this episode?
As for Princes not being higher ranking than knights - it is in the name. Prince trumps Knight, it is in the hierarchy. Also Princes hand picked by Lucifer to be generals, Knights picked and trained by Cain to fight. In what sense would anyone in hell say a Cain groupie would be equal to a member Lucifer's squad? Come Snow pushing my buttons is great so you get me to go on and on, but why? However I have noticed my language isn't censored on this page unlike Imdb so don't take it personally if I swear.
Though I will give you that I was wrong about Lilith, she knew she was doomed to die by Sam's hand but she didn't get killed by the knife, Sam shot his wad killing her and Dean had the knife outside the door. That means no WED was ever killed by the knife, we don't know if the knife would have been effective against Lilith outside she didn't want stabbed with it by the guy who was destined to kill her. Even if it wasn't effective against her, who wants to be stabbed if you don't have to be especially when she was manipulating Sam into position to go and kill her later on?
But that doesn't top there is no way Dean wouldn't have told her that he killed the demon that killed her with a special weapon. her baby boy is being tossed around by the brother of the demon that killed her stands to reason the same weapon would work on him.
We just have to accept it, in this episode Mary is a bit of a duplicitous cow and put her boys lives on the line.
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Post by SkeksisGirl on Feb 18, 2017 11:56:31 GMT -5
But what happened to we are not going into the John being abusive roundabout? I think what Snow means, and what I hope, is some of the BS canon ignoring crap that CK would spew in her defense of John. I could be wrong though. I am not in Snow's mind.
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Post by paforrest on Feb 18, 2017 13:35:32 GMT -5
I actually decided to try watching the episode online yesterday afternoon since I'd cooled off after reading the discussion, yet had already deleted it from the dvr. I still ended up having to skip through where I could because I don't know if it was the way the episode was shot, or eye strain, or a combination of both, but by the end I was in full-blown vertigo migraine stage. So any episode that quite literally makes me lose my lunch isn't ever going down as a favorite.
Overall, though, I thought it was a hot mess. Some of the lines were almost laughably bad, and the acting worse, across the board. I even felt like Jensen was phoning it in, though I can't say I'd blame him given what he did get from this script. And I don't know what the heck that slo-mo shot was about, but it looked like something you'd see in the end of year gag reel.
I get what Perez and Speight were trying to go for, it just didn't work and looked silly and choppy. Repeating scenes from other viewpoints is supposed to net you new information each time, but I didn't see that happening. Just looked like an excuse to get away with writing as little as possible by simply repeating the same stupid scenes.
The new-old mytharc is simply a straight-on rip-off of Cain and the Knights of Hell, with a generous helping of apocalypse retconning, topped off by going to the annoying Sam check-list of Dean things that must be repurposed. Aka, Sam killing a YED. They've been waiting for years to check that one off the list, and with Michael's spear as an extra bit of salt in the wound seeing as the gag order remains intact WRT no mention at all of Dean's one-time connection to Michael. Good grief, even Dean acted like he'd never heard of Michael before. Come on.
And Mary is the worst. I remain dumbfounded at the portrayal of this character. She sucks the life out of every single scene she's in.
I'm also confused by Lucille in the cage at the end. Um, isn't that Crowley's earth-based lair, not actually Hell? Sooooo ... dude's just in a little cage, not in the supposedly supermax box? That doesn't make any sense, he could just pop out into a vessel anytime. Dumb and dumber. It only makes sense if Lucille is a figment of Crowley's imagination, for whatever reason. Maybe that's where they're heading with this, which would therefore simply be a rehash of Sam's relentless boring Hell pain from season 6/7.
I'll bump my final rating up to 1.5/10. Might have given it a 2, but I deduct .5 for the loss of my lunch.
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Post by Mystique on Feb 18, 2017 14:20:52 GMT -5
Yeah, this. I find her an interesting character who gels well with TFW. When the writers have bothered to do anything between her and her sons, Castiel and even Crowley, she brings some new material and a spark, especially with Castiel. And I agree that it's frustrating to see them waste so much of that on pointless wangst and the worst storylines of the season like the LoL and that stupid "devil baby mama drama," as Dean put it last week. I'd rather see her bonding with Dean and getting less arm's-length with Sam, or hunting with Castiel. Mind you, I get why people don't like Mary as a person. She's emotionally distant, cold, wary, and independent almost to the point of sociopathy. But that's accurate for someone who was raised in the Life. Her becoming a mother didn't mean she could completely change her nature. I'll bet that if she'd lived longer the first time round, this is what she'd have been like by the time the Brothers were teens (can you imagine Dean sneaking out after her and discovering hunting that way? Whoo). I just wanted to point out that John and Bobby were pretty unlikeable as people, too, but they were still fun characters who added to the story and were interesting to watch. And there are fans who are Team John or Team Bobby. There's a lot more to a character than being likeable, but unfortunately, female characters usually get stuck in box if they're not antagonists, which is only one reason why high-riding bitch characters are so often a good time had by many audience members. I guess you could say I was always more Team Mary and hoped they would bring her back and explore her as a Hunter. Even with her faults, she's a huge step up from both John and Bobby in that at least she's not abusive. Neglectful, maybe, and distant, but not intentionally mean. And I think with a little better writing (as happened with Rowena, from "The Werther Project" onward), she would make a good permanent addition since it means they can return to a "Bobby" or "John" character without reducing the Brothers to "boys" again. I don't want them to get rid of her. I just want them to improve the writing for her. Every single recurring female character they've ever had got a rocky intro and only improved later. It's not different for Mary.
I get that some hate her, but I wanted to put it out there that I still like the character. Did she make a mistake? Yes. Do I now want her burned at the stake for it? Hell no. But some seem to want to jump on anything she does to try and get rid of her. And I also do not want to see her gone.
I'm not sure why others want to compare Mary to or against John and/or Bobby. They're all fallible characters, and none of them are going to come out smelling like a rose. I seem to be one of the few people that are in the middle of the road when it comes to John. And I don't feel like Bobby was any better than John, at all. Both were neglectful and abusive IMO, John physically and Bobby emotionally. Mary may turn out to be neglectful as well, however we can't know that for sure unless we see more of who she is when truly integrated with TFW, following her adjustment period, when she is settled into some kind of permanent life. So, IMO it is still to soon to make that call.
Even though they seem to be keeping the character off in the distance and only trotting her out for their other stories, I still find her and the relationship she has with Dean, Cas and Sam more interesting. And I would like to see what develops there.
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Post by Mystique on Feb 18, 2017 14:33:20 GMT -5
With regard to John and Mary, I tend to think of John as fire and Mary as ice. I think John had a quick temper and was very passionate when it came to hunting, his obsession for revenge, and his idea of family. I think Mary is cold and calculated when it comes to hunting, her way of dealing with her current situation, and in her idea of family. They're opposites and equally as destructive in extremes.
I agree, that is what it appears to be looking like so far. And could very well be the case. I'd like to see more of the family dynamic between the 4 of them, versus what they're doing by using them to prop up their other stories.
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Post by thesnowleopard on Feb 18, 2017 16:59:52 GMT -5
But what happened to we are not going into the John being abusive roundabout? I think what Snow means, and what I hope, is some of the BS canon ignoring crap that CK would spew in her defense of John. I could be wrong though. I am not in Snow's mind.Yeah, this. Fanon's nice, but not when brought up in the defense of a liminal character and not when it actively contradicts canon. Also, some things are just facts. Why? Because the Show of them is unambiguous and because that Show is confirmed by meta-Tell by the showrunners. And there are a few things that have been confirmed in this way: John was an abusive and neglectful parent. Dean is an alcoholic. Dean is mentally ill. Sam was seduced to the darkside in seasons three and four by Ruby (who was evil). Sam was psychotic with Hellpain in season seven. Now, sure, we can argue the effectiveness of presentation and talk about stuff that didn't come through well, like the whole bit about Sam having to accept himself and Dean having to accept Sam in season five (which came from the horse's mouth), and we can certainly talk about John's motivations or how severe his treatment was, but these things are facts.
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Post by thesnowleopard on Feb 18, 2017 17:33:17 GMT -5
We just have to accept it, in this episode Mary is a bit of a duplicitous cow and put her boys lives on the line. LOL! at making you ranty. We know Lilith could be killed by the Spork because we know Alastair could be killed by the Spork. In their fight, Castiel stabs Alastair with the Spork and TK-twists it in the wound, creating sparks and glow. Alastair comments that it might have worked if Castiel had aimed better (i.e., gotten him in the heart or brain). We also see Lilith afraid of the Spork in "No Rest for the Wicked" and "The Monster at the End of This Book." It doesn't make sense for her to be afraid of it if she's not vulnerable to it. As far as the Princes, I know what kind of ridiculous retcon Perez was trying to do. That doesn't mean it makes any sense. You've got the Princes, who can be killed by any old powerful weapon, and you've got the Knights, who can only be killed by the First Blade (and maaaayyyybe an archangel smite, though that was never proven). An entire storyline was based on the fact that in addition to being super-powerful in their own right, the Knights could only be killed by a single, morally corrupting weapon that had to be wielded by someone very specific. No such moral dilemmas with killing either Azazel or Ramiel. In addition, Abaddon ran the Apocalypse Clock unchallenged until she disappeared. YED wasn't even able to contact Lucifer, let alone get things going again, until 15 years later. That tells me right there that Knights trump Princes every time in the hierarchy of Hell. It's basically like that rhyme about the Lords of Coucy: Roi ne suis, Ne prince ne duc ne comte aussi. Je suis le sire de Coucy. ("No king am I, nor prince nor duke nor count as well. I am the Lord of Coucy"). Titles are not everything. And unlike the boring Ramiel, Cain wasn't staying out of the fight because he didn't care. He was staying out because his losing control would have dire consequences. As we eventually found out. It made sense that Lucifer wouldn't touch him. Cain couldn't be killed and his having the Mark served a purpose. Lucifer feared him and left him alone. There was no reason for Lucifer to fear the YEDs, so why did he let them sit out the Apocalypse? It makes no sense. No argument that Mary is being duplicitous, or that she screwed up and kept it on the downlow. That makes her a Winchester. Just saying I like her that way. As for the comparison to John and Bobby, I'm not really interested in ranking them in awfulness so much as pointing out that they are deeply flawed characters who are also immensely (and justifiably) popular. It's not they're popular in spite of their flaws. Their flaws make them more interesting. I don't want to watch "nice" characters. I want to watch fun characters. John frequently pissed me off. So did Bobby (and Kripke and Gamble sadly ruined him by making him whiny from "Lucifer Rising" onward). But they didn't bore me. Well, Mary's flaws are interesting to me. Sure, I wish the writing for her arc were better. Sure, I wish they'd do more with her relationship with Dean (especially since she actually has one with Dean; it's debatable what she has with Sam right now). But I kinda like her High Plains Drifter/Bitch with No Name attitude. Beats Fridged Mommy in a Nightdress. Same thing with Rowena. What pissed me off about her initially wasn't that she was as much of a bitch as a witch. It was that she was a bit one-dimensional. That's all she was. There were no surprising glints of humanity, just total self-absorption. All strong characters need an arc. All strong characters need goals and setbacks. And, like it or not, all characters who stick around long enough have to be allied/connected with each in some way. Villains go stale much faster than any other type of character because they don't grow. Once you've seen their bag of tricks, their utility is done. So, to me, Rowena allying with the Brothers makes a lot of sense. They're a lot alike, only really separated by Dean's Old Testament-style moral compass and Sam's vengeful nature. And I think it would have been lousy writing for Rowena not to have had an epiphany from meeting the two divine principles that govern her universe and still stick around.
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