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Post by thesnowleopard on Feb 19, 2017 18:39:45 GMT -5
It might be not so much ignoring the Carver era as Dabb having his own take on the show. Which is something I feared would happen when I heard he would become the new showrunner. I've read those Supernatural comics. I already knew I wasn't gonna like his own take on the show. I've never read the comics (I already wasn't a fan of a lot of his episodes so I didn't want to chance it). What's his take in it? Let me put it this way: Dabb and Loflin (and from the one ep we saw of Loflin and lots of Dabb's solo efforts, this is largely Dabb) did Lilith a while before Kripke did. She was a BED who pretended to be a teacher of Sam's who got involved (as in, his girlfriend) with John, playing surrogate mommy to the boys. Once she showed her true, obsessively Sam-girl colors, her skirts suddenly got so short that it was fairly obscene and upskirt panels seemed to be the order of the day. Plus, there was that bit where she french-kissed a teenage Dean and he called her a bitch.
In addition, John was roaming around at one point murdering any Hunters he thought might be onto Sam having psy powers. And then there was this weird plot involving a bigoted albino Hunter who was trying to hunt down Sam (it's every bit as awful as it sounds) whom (still teenage) Dean eventually killed in Sam's defense. Again, this was years before Dean had killed any humans on the show. Dean in the comic made Carl on The Walking Dead look like a sweet, gentle, little boy. And the Sam worship was right off the scale, though I always figured Kripke mandated that.
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Post by anouck9 on Feb 19, 2017 19:00:43 GMT -5
Let me put it this way: And the Sam worship was right off the scale, though I always figured Kripke mandated that. Uh... Yeah, not surprised... When I learned he was the new showrunner, I checked his episodes and I was amazed to realize how many of them I didn't like (and two were in my most hated ones...) Even the one I really liked, Plucky's Menagerie, did end on a sour note re-Dean apologizing... So I guess I'll have to brace myself for Sera 2.0. And in a redux of season 6 more or less... I think the Alpha Vampire episode will be a good test of what to expect. And I'm feeling less happy about the more settled Dean we had since the beginning of the season. I thought it was supposed to show that he had find a measure of peace and balance, but I'm starting to wonder if it's not just disinterest in his trauma, all the more to highlight Sam's damage once more (I don't think there's one Sam's big storyline that hasn't been recalled one way or another...)
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Post by aduty1 on Feb 20, 2017 9:47:47 GMT -5
I generally liked this episode but it does leave it to the viewer to fill in the blanks on their own. The Princes have potential and I want Dagon to be a kind of Lovecraft villain but I expect to be disappointed by that. I liked the Atlantis reference and was overjoyed by the Colt and Mark's return. I also enjoyed the return to form of earlier seasons where they didn't stop the fight to exorcise or Handcuff the demons to check for wounds (not a season 11 fan). I see there have already been some discussion on what I thought was the weakest part of the episode....
Mary. I get that they are trying to build her up but they have done so to the point of ridiculousness. In 12 episodes she has saved Dean and Cas from the LoL that beat them up, inspired the greatest hunter in Canada that could kill 5 Wendigo's in one hunt (after killing a werewolf), kill the Vampire that Cas couldn't find, helped Asa's kids take out a werewolf pack in New Orleans, hunt a shapeshifter, take out over a dozen vampire nests, 4 werewolf packs, a ghoul and whatever she fights next episode. If that was Sam and Dean's story, this would be the best season ever. In fact, I don't think the boys have beaten that record in any season they have been in including the Mark of Cain story line. I used to think they tried too hard to build Charlie up but this positively makes me miss her. I'm not sure why this is, you could tell from episode one that Ellen Harvelle was a badass and she was never shown cutting through swaths of monsters. Jody Mills has definitely earned her role since she was introduced. With Mary and the BoL it just seems like they are trying too hard to prove that they are better than Sam and Dean and I think that could come back and bite them (if it already hasn't).
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Post by cluelessdrifter on Feb 20, 2017 18:53:28 GMT -5
I'm not interested in playing the Victim Olympics. If you're offended that I'm pointing out a possible bias, perhaps you could take a moment to consider my (and, apparently, Mystique's) irritation at having to write a dissertation on why I like a certain character and why this always seems to involve female characters a lot more than male ones. I've got other things to do this weekend, y'know? As it happens, I like Mary. As is. Warts and all. And I'm getting quite tired of having to defend that position every single time I make it. Dislike her all you want, but please stop jumping all over anyone who does. Also, I keep seeing claims that Mary is acting the way Samuel would in the same situation, but I'm not seeing any convincing proof. What part of selling his grandsons off to be eaten by Ghouls makes Samuel like Mary? Samuel made his deal with Crowley at the expense of his grandsons and his cousins to get Mary resurrected. I don't see how that's at all the same as Mary dealing with the LoL to make her family ultimately safer. Hell, *Sam* called them up earlier this season for help and he did it on the sly, too. And Dean has had Crowley on his leash and speed dial for years. Mary isn't doing a thing Sam, Dean or John hasn't ever done--a lot. In that respect, she is a Winchester through and through. If I'm offended that you're claiming that I'm gender biased against females, a personal attack on me, then I should consider your feelings about having to defend a particular character? Okay. It is annoying to defend yourself ideas in a debate. How about personal attacks? Victim Olympics? Biased? You're perfectly within your rights to insult me, but I am allowed to defend myself, something I am well capable of doing, or am I not allowed to do that, because you're a mod? If I say something negative about Mary or the Campbells, it isn't a personal attack on you even though it may seem that way. I understand that a person's individuality is wrapped up in his/her opinion and world view, but is it really impossible to discuss a fictional character without hurling insults? And if you look at my previous posts, I was impartial when discussing both John and Mary in my discussion. I've said at least twice now that neither one was better than the other . . . true equality. It was the introduction of a false equivalence that if we're discussing Mary and the Campbells, we must then also add John and the Winchesters to make the discussion equal that I disliked. I then said that you couldn't use Henry vs. Samuel as a comparison, because the situations were different. It was then twisted to say that if people compared Mary to the Campbell's, that she was being blamed for her family's misdeeds. This is another logical fallacy that I disliked, and then because I disliked it, it was presented as though it was because I was being gender biased against Mary. I don't know your personal history on defending fictional characters. I do know that because I disliked your method of argument, it doesn't make me biased. It is something that was said in an effort to shut me up when that wasn't even the argument I was putting forth.Nobody is forcing you to write a dissertation in defense of Mary. 'I like Mary warts and all,' would suffice. 'I dislike the writing for her character and could accept her warts and all if the writing for her was good,' would be my response. "Don't feel you can't disagree just because I'm a mod." I'm guessing your annoyance at writing out the reasons why you like a character negates this? Are one or two disagreements with you allowed, and any more than that a problem? This was precisely why I was hesitant to stay here when I saw you had mod status.
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Post by SkeksisGirl on Feb 20, 2017 20:07:20 GMT -5
It is derogatory if you dislike the comparison between she and her father because of how she played this particular mission for the Colt. I think she played it the way Samuel would have, therefore, I don't think that it was derogatory. For the record, and you can take this with a grain of salt if you want, Mitch Pileggi was not a fan with how the writers portrayed Samuel Campbell in season eight. This was something Mitch told me personally when I asked him about it at a convention.
So, here's what I see of the whole thing. The writers, as usual, are idiots who don't know what they're doing. They wrote Sam Campbell very differently from his very brief time in season four. And now they're doing that to Mary.
I can see why Snow is annoyed, a LOT of people didn't want Mary showing up at all, and no matter what, they were not going to be happy. Add to the fact that the writers are royally making her character fairly unlikable, it can get annoying.
Also, myself and others have had to deal with a lot of people that just want to bitch about things for whatever reason. It does tend to wear on us after a while.
I feel that it's just best to wait out the season with Mary to see what happens and go from there. IMO, the writers are making it very hard for people to like her. And that is just something the writers tend to do. There are a rare few female characters they did right without ruining IMO. Jody being one of them.
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Post by ilovedean27 on Feb 21, 2017 0:01:35 GMT -5
It is derogatory if you dislike the comparison between she and her father because of how she played this particular mission for the Colt. I think she played it the way Samuel would have, therefore, I don't think that it was derogatory. Jody being one of them.
That's interesting, because while I don't dislike Jody, I'm pretty much indifferent to the character. But as for Mary, I don't like the things she's doing at the moment and I greatly dislike that she hasn't made much of an effort to connect with Dean (and Sam), but at the same time, I still find her character more fascinating than Jody (I actually feel the same way about John over Bobby). I'm willing to wait to see what they do with Mary, but I hope whatever they do results in a much needed conversation between Dean and Mary.
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Post by denise42 on Feb 21, 2017 6:39:22 GMT -5
I enjoyed this episode, but i didn't like the Tarantino effect, I would have liked it more just normal, all this going backwards and forwards was confusing. I was so looking forward to Mary coming back but now i am not so sure. I thought she would be more maternal, instead she nearly kills them. I suppose i was like deans point of view of a four year old. Now it turns out she lies and can't cook.
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Post by paforrest on Feb 21, 2017 7:05:03 GMT -5
It is derogatory if you dislike the comparison between she and her father because of how she played this particular mission for the Colt. I think she played it the way Samuel would have, therefore, I don't think that it was derogatory. For the record, and you can take this with a grain of salt if you want, Mitch Pileggi was not a fan with how the writers portrayed Samuel Campbell in season eight. This was something Mitch told me personally when I asked him about it at a convention.
So, here's what I see of the whole thing. The writers, as usual, are idiots who don't know what they're doing. They wrote Sam Campbell very differently from his very brief time in season four. And now they're doing that to Mary.
I can see why Snow is annoyed, a LOT of people didn't want Mary showing up at all, and no matter what, they were not going to be happy. Add to the fact that the writers are royally making her character fairly unlikable, it can get annoying.
I don't feel under any obligation to like a character just because she's female. But I was one of those fans back in the summer who originally thought it might be interesting to have Mary back, hoping it would give Dean another strong person to interact with who might be better for him than Sam. I did not expect what the showrunners and writers are doing with this character in seeming to go out of their way to make her as unlikable as possible, but this is what they've done and so be it. I don't like her, I think she's pretty awful so far. I'm hardly alone, and I'm including other fans I know who were also originally looking forward to the character being back. And I despised what they did to Sam Campbell too, and not at all surprised that Pileggi was pissed and hated it because they ruined a good strong character, and I feel like Gamble did it purposely still nursing butt hurt over Dean getting "In the Beginning". So Sam Campbell, and frankly the entire Campbell clan, were ruined for what looked like spite. And I love Pileggi, I was excited for them to bring him back. Of course, now I realize wanting characters/actors back is so much "be careful what you wish for" on this show, because it pretty much never goes well, especially as the showrunning changes and, IMO, continues to go downhill as it does. The rub, of course, is that I don't think Dabb et. al. believe they're making Mary as unlikable as she is - and maybe Sam Smith's acting doesn't help matters either. I honestly believe Dabb cares more about Mary than he does Dean and Sam, certainly more than he does Dean, so the fact that she's coming off so badly in the writing and the acting is ironic and probably not the plan.
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Post by fishpan on Feb 21, 2017 7:52:27 GMT -5
I agree that Dabb and co probably don't think they are making Mary as unlikable as she is becoming.
They haven't done enough to show Mary isn't coping with being out of time and not being able to cope with the expectations of her sons. They have touched on it a little with the brothers getting she isn't going to cook and make chicken soup for them. But they haven't addressed that she is dealing with two men who expect her to become a full blown matriarch in the Ellen or Jodie type mould when the woman had four years of mothering experience and the only thing she can make is tomato rice soup.
They are also not addressing that because her physically not being in the show for so long means Mary is so much of a blank slate that she barely has an identity outside being Samuel's daughter, John's wife and the boys' mother and how she shares a few foibles with both of them. And what identity they have given her doesn't make much sense - she's now an uber hunter, when she hasn't been a regular hunter since she got married (or John would have worked something out) and them stating regularly she hated it. But now she is almost a one woman army. They have written her as basically dark Charlie without the nerd and tech, even if the aim was Carol out of the walking dead. Carol had the ground work for her turn around - they haven't done that with Mary.
They haven't laid enough groundwork to really show to show she's become that because she is grabbing onto the hunting because she is struggling or that she is working with the men of letters for a reason that we can understand. That possibly she is trying to work out why the MoL are there now or that she is so desperate to get a hold onto something that is purely her that she is willing to work for people who may be harmful to her boys or she is desperate to try and make it right that her boys were trapped into a hunting life she is willing to work with anyone that is offering to end that threat even if she knows they are shady.
But none of that can be argued as possibilities because the writers haven't shown her failing to connect with anyone and are now saying she is willing to call her sons and Cas in and lie to them to the point that it puts them at risk. They now have a Mary who made the choice to bring Wally and the boys into a job she didn't like without giving them the whole story and having her pay lip service to taking out the MoL even though she just put them above her 'boys' by giving the MoL the colt.
What the writers have done have made Mary act in a way that we have no choice by to compare her action to that of her father because Samuel trained her, hunted with her and like it or not her sons call her a Winchester but when it comes to hunting her moves are being taken straight out of the season 6 Campbell rule book. Which I can completely understand the actor who played him hated.
The only way I can see this going is the boys being disgusted when they find out what she did and possibly the scorched earth policy that Ketch and co follow causing major issues that eventually cause the boys have to choose to shield Mary against someone they use an ally. Whether that be another hunter or say Rowena or Crowley because of something Mary does.
And if people think that makes me sexist then tough. I don't have to like a character because they are female and the same goes for male.
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Post by anouck9 on Feb 21, 2017 8:11:25 GMT -5
The only way I can see this going is the boys being disgusted when they find out what she did and possibly the scorched earth policy that Ketch and co follow causing major issues that eventually cause the boys have to choose to shield Mary against someone they use an ally. Whether that be another hunter or say Rowena or Crowley because of something Mary does. I'm not that sure that the brothers will be an united front on that. In fact, I fully expect them to react in opposites ways. I don't know which one is gonna fall in line however. Sam has been pretty ok with everything this year, so he may go with it (hell he even called them himself), especially since he tends to be more lenient about that kind of things as long as ot's not Dean doing them. Dean on this other hand should in all logic reject it because he doesn't like taking orders, he doesn't like the MOL, he would hate having been deceived and in addition, would probably be pissed that Mary choose to hunt with someone else. OTOH, this showrunner doesn't care for Dean, so for all I know, they could have him go with it in a desperate "I want Mommy to love me" move. And while I'm not too excited to see Gavin again, I think that we will have some clues from Dean's behavior with Crowley and Rowena of where he stands with Mary. Because I don't know about you, but one thing that stood out for me last week was that Dean is less enthousiastic that he was about Mary. I don't know if it's a byproduct of the writing of this episode, or if it's deliberate. And yes, I do agree with you that at one point, there's a good chance that it's gonna lead to a confrontation with Crowley.
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Post by fishpan on Feb 21, 2017 8:27:01 GMT -5
I think that it is one thing for Sam to be okay with Mary working with the MoL because he called them but I don't think he will be 100% okay with finding out about the colt and her not being up front about the job she called them in on. He may play peacemaker between her and Dean but I can't see Sam totally giving her a pass. Not after his years of being pissed at John for his high handedness and the years of having him and Dean go at it about lies and how it leads to problems. Even though it isn't exactly fair to her, Mary does have a bigger pedestal to fall off of with regard to her boys which means the disappointment would be greater than if say Bobby had been found to have done what Mary just did. Even though they are getting she isn't the person they want her to be.
As for where Dean stands with Mary, it is one thing to be up and down with her it is another about letting her be left to piss in the wind if there is a reason for another hunter or the likes of Crowley and Rowena to take out their anger on the MoL.
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Post by aduty1 on Feb 21, 2017 11:03:58 GMT -5
I don't really know what the intention of the writers are in regards to Mary. I know they are pushing the great hunter angle and I think they have more than proven that. I don't know if they want her to be likable though. Considering Dean's abandonment issues, leaving the boys was just about the worst thing she could do to Dean and that isn't exactly going to win anyone over. They just aren't showing what her motivations are and that can be frustrating. One little line to Mr. Ketch about getting rid of the mosters to save her boys from Hunting would have gone a long way. I do think that she would sacrifice herself for Sam and Dean but I haven't seen that she actually loves them yet. She has had more episodes than most characters but she hasn't seemed to bond with them like Charlie, Ellen, Jody, Donna...etc have.
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Post by cluelessdrifter on Feb 21, 2017 11:04:19 GMT -5
The only way I can see this going is the boys being disgusted when they find out what she did and possibly the scorched earth policy that Ketch and co follow causing major issues that eventually cause the boys have to choose to shield Mary against someone they use an ally. Whether that be another hunter or say Rowena or Crowley because of something Mary does. I'm not that sure that the brothers will be an united front on that. In fact, I fully expect them to react in opposites ways. I don't know which one is gonna fall in line however. Sam has been pretty ok with everything this year, so he may go with it (hell he even called them himself), especially since he tends to be more lenient about that kind of things as long as ot's not Dean doing them. Dean on this other hand should in all logic reject it because he doesn't like taking orders, he doesn't like the MOL, he would hate having been deceived and in addition, would probably be pissed that Mary choose to hunt with someone else. OTOH, this showrunner doesn't care for Dean, so for all I know, they could have him go with it in a desperate "I want Mommy to love me" move. And while I'm not too excited to see Gavin again, I think that we will have some clues from Dean's behavior with Crowley and Rowena of where he stands with Mary. Because I don't know about you, but one thing that stood out for me last week was that Dean is less enthousiastic that he was about Mary. I don't know if it's a byproduct of the writing of this episode, or if it's deliberate. And yes, I do agree with you that at one point, there's a good chance that it's gonna lead to a confrontation with Crowley. I've been thinking about this, and I agree that Dean and Sam will have different reactions to the news. Now I'm not sure about what those reactions will be. Sam has been holding an awful lot in this season, and I keep going back to the way he let it get away from him with Gail in American Nightmare. I'm referring to when he said she was the one who killed her daughter. It was before he even knew what she was doing to her presumed dead daughter in the basement. I thought it seemed like he was venting his frustration with Mary's departure in that scene and in the way he focused on the mother as the villain (even though she was), but it didn't go anywhere. And before the start of the season, I thought that Sam would be the one with the problems concerning Mary. I thought they might spend more time on what she did or didn't do about Azazel in those 10 years, but they haven't spent any time on it. All we know is that she remembers the deal, recognized Azazel in the nursery, and knew Azazel's name in this last episode. 'Did you do anything to at least try and stop it?' would be a pretty good question for Sam to ask or at least think about since even as late as the trials in season 8, he remembered feeling unclean as a kid because of the demon blood. It would make as much sense for Sam to be upset with Mary for working for the BMoL behind their backs if he were really upset about something else and had been letting it slide all this time, as it would for Dean to be upset about it because Dean doesn't like the BMoL or being lied to by people he puts his trust in. It's a toss up for me on which way it will go. I'm thinking Dean because of how he's been written this season as far as his interactions with Mary go, and maybe it'll be the final straw for him, but in actuality, it should probably be both of them for different reasons. Also, if they're going to make a point of saying that Mary looks too young for her age, the way they did in the Celebrating the Life of Asa Fox episode, then they should really be focusing on her mental age being 28 as well. Dean and Sam are older than she is, and they should play that up more, because Dean and Sam are the ones with more experience in hunting and life. That would be more believable to me than what we've seen so far, and I think it would make the dynamics more interesting, but that's my opinion.
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Post by thesnowleopard on Feb 21, 2017 12:06:39 GMT -5
[sigh] Once more with feeling, guys--my problem with judging Mary worse than John et. al. is not a reflexive feminazi thing. It's that she's not doing this because she's a Campbell. She's doing this because she's a parental figure.
This show has not had a single parental figure onscreen longer than five minutes who wasn't duplicitous and underhanded toward the Brothers. These characters are always antagonists of some sort. John, Bobby, Henry and Grandpa Shady all did things that were equally underhanded or far worse. It doesn't have a damned thing with her being a Campbell. It has to do with her being their mom. This was never going to go well if she was going to stick around for longer than five minutes at the beginning of the season because that's just how this show rolls.
I think people were fooled by Mommy substitutes like Ellen and Jody, or the stardust Fridge Mommy memories of Mary, but those are no more an indication of how the writers do actual mother figures than Sonny from "Bad Boys" was an example of how they do dads. Mary wasn't ever going to be a cuddly mom simultaneously with being any major part of the story. Hearken back to how much pain and conflict John, Bobby and Grandpa Shady generated for the Brothers and tell me how this is so different.
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loops
New Member
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Post by loops on Feb 21, 2017 18:55:59 GMT -5
I thought they might spend more time on what she did or didn't do about Azazel in those 10 years, but they haven't spent any time on it. All we know is that she remembers the deal, recognized Azazel in the nursery, and knew Azazel's name in this last episode. 'Did you do anything to at least try and stop it?' would be a pretty good question for Sam to ask or at least think about since even as late as the trials in season 8, he remembered feeling unclean as a kid because of the demon blood. Also, if they're going to make a point of saying that Mary looks too young for her age, the way they did in the Celebrating the Life of Asa Fox episode, then they should really be focusing on her mental age being 28 as well. Dean and Sam are older than she is, and they should play that up more, because Dean and Sam are the ones with more experience in hunting and life. That would be more believable to me than what we've seen so far, and I think it would make the dynamics more interesting, but that's my opinion. All I want for Mary is better writing. Yes, I find her extremely unlikable, but I'm ok with her being unlikable - some of the best characters in fiction are so flawed as to be pretty awful, but there's usually a redeeming quality, a way to be able to still get behind them. I could stand a few flashbacks or an honest conversation to fill in some of the blanks and give us some motivation or character development. Right now, I feel as though I'm reading a book where the author is deliberately withholding information for the 'big reveal,' and character development simply consists of Mary becoming a lone wolf super hunter, when it actually made more sense to me to have her stay with Sam and Dean and have them mentor their mother in a parent/child role reversal, until she was up to speed. I wanted to see her more of her struggle to acclimatise onscreen, but too much of her development happened off-camera. Let us witness her journey from stranger to accomplished hunter to matriarch. Once we have a sympathetic character established, she can make all the dick moves she wants because at least then I'd be emotionally invested in her, rather than just irritated by her presence.
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