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Post by thesnowleopard on Mar 6, 2017 23:18:40 GMT -5
I really didn't like how the writers had Dean equate his expectations that Mary NOT lie and betray him to expecting her to "make him lunch" and "kiss him goodnight." She's been treating her sons horribly, and that has nothing to do with not making their lunches or tucking them in at night. That just seemed like an overly simplistic explanation/apology. Like it was somehow sexist of Dean to be hurt in this situation. I'm hoping it's Dean just trying to do what he thinks is the mature thing, but still secretly feeling hurt by Mary's actions. We're talking about a guy who's pretty used to being lied to by family. Who sees himself as "Daddy's blunt little instrument," got half-throttled by his brother who chose a demon over him, got a "boo-hoo princess" speech from their father figure when he complained about it, and was beaten half to death (more than once) by his angelic best friend. In the grand scheme of things, Mary sneaking around with the LoL and then coming clean on her own wasn't really that huge. It just felt huge because up to that point, she was about the only family member who hadn't lied to him about something major. Also, Dean's speech was a follow-up to Mary's saying he wasn't a child, anymore and Dean shooting back, "I was never a child." It didn't come out of the blue. And she did apologize, even if Dean didn't let her do a whole speech.
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Post by nitar on Mar 7, 2017 1:26:40 GMT -5
I really don't care if she "tried" to apologise and Dean stopped her. I am sick and tired of everyone and their uncle "trying to apologise" to Dean and Dean stopping them.
You know what? If that was me in her place, I don't care what Dean said, I would still complete what I was originally trying to say and APOLOGISE. That is what someone who is truly sorry would do - say what you really feel in your heart. But that's just me. I guess Sam & Mary feel differently. Or the writers / showrunners since they are the ones who are actually making these characters say this crap.
I just wish they would acknowledge publicly that Dean too has feelings instead of everyone talking of Dean like he is a jerk and Sam & Mary are so empathetic and so sweet etc etc etc. It's like they are still talking with Kripke's original script (where Dean was written like an assbutt / jerk) and don't quite know what to do with Jensen's version of Dean so they ignore that part of him. I find Jensen's Dean to be far more empathetic than any of the other characters on this show ever.
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Post by thesnowleopard on Mar 7, 2017 3:41:25 GMT -5
Or Dean simply feels that talk is cheap and that he doesn't want to hear an apology so much as he wants to see the person make more of an effort in future not to act like that again.
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Post by Mystique on Mar 7, 2017 3:43:32 GMT -5
I really don't care if she "tried" to apologise and Dean stopped her. I am sick and tired of everyone and their uncle "trying to apologise" to Dean and Dean stopping them. I just wish they would acknowledge publicly that Dean too has feelings instead of everyone talking of Dean like he is a jerk and Sam & Mary are so empathetic and so sweet etc etc etc. I find Jensen's Dean to be far more empathetic than any of the other characters on this show ever. But that is what Dean has done since the pilot episode and 12 seasons hasn't changed that aspect of him, and therefore that is just who he is IMO.
I have seen, by the better writers this season, Dean's feelings being validated, and have not seen any whitewashing of Mary. IMO she's taking her lumps and Dean, being Dean, is forgiving and understanding of her as he has been with others. But that's JMO.
People can like, find interesting or despise her. I just happen to be a Dean fan that also likes her and finds her involvement interesting.
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Post by paforrest on Mar 7, 2017 7:12:26 GMT -5
I really don't care if she "tried" to apologise and Dean stopped her. I am sick and tired of everyone and their uncle "trying to apologise" to Dean and Dean stopping them. You know what? If that was me in her place, I don't care what Dean said, I would still complete what I was originally trying to say and APOLOGISE. That is what someone who is truly sorry would do - say what you really feel in your heart. But that's just me. I guess Sam & Mary feel differently. Or the writers / showrunners since they are the ones who are actually making these characters say this crap. Yeah, this writing habit is so old, it's covered in mold and stinks, not to mention it's the epitome of lazy writing. IMO it just proves that whether or not the SPN writers and showrunners are as butthurt as they act like they are over Dean's continued popularity - an attitude that still baffles and would baffle any showrunner working on any other series in the industry - the ironic thing is that at the same time they clearly don't believe characters like Sam and Mary can withstand owning their own crap and having to admit they're wronger than wrong. So Dean will always be dumped on to do the emotional heavy-lifting and crap-owning, especially when it's not even his crap. Or, worse, almost every writer and showrunner who has run through this show in 12 years has been hired because of a very warped/bordering on disturbed sense of values, and no one thinks anything awful that characters like Sam and Mary do is wrong, especially when they do awful things to Dean, even though everyone in the audience without said same warped sense of values can see that they are wrong and horrible. Whichever one it is isn't good. Either way, as she is written and acted, I don't believe for a hot second that Mary is sorry or thinks she's wrong, not to mention the fact I see zero evidence that she likes these guys much less loves them in any capacity. I think the Nep Duo actually wrote the most insightful line I've heard all season in their last episode when Ketch calls Mary a liar right after she's gotten off the phone with Dean. She's acting on the phone with him, she means nothing she says - and I'm not talking about the lies she tells him about what she's up to. I mean she's lying by trying to playact his mother. She doesn't mean it, and at this point she should just come out and tell them she really doesn't care about them.
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Post by aduty1 on Mar 7, 2017 7:40:00 GMT -5
I think that TPTB recognize how poorly Mary has been received and they seem to being doing some damage control. Mary finally said that she was motivated to rid the world of monsters so the boys could have a normal life. If they had done this earlier then there probably not been as much animosity towards her. I don't even think she had to say it to the boys, if she had said that to Jody or the BoL at least the audience would see her intentions were good. Unfortunately, they just made it seem like she froze her children out and now they have some ground to make up.
I am much more angry that once again Sam is trying to push Dean down the wrong path. With Dean always having to apologize (even when he is right) it is going to make him look stupid when this all goes south. Yes, Dean was being the bigger person but he was right for freezing Mary out in the first place and he is right about not trusting the BoL.
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Post by fishpan on Mar 7, 2017 8:42:03 GMT -5
Did you notice the look that Mary gave after Sam confirmed it was Bobby that gave him the recipe for the bullets? It wasn't a good one. Jealous much?
And did she know that Bobby (the third and most long standing/reliable parental figure in her sons lives) had something to do with the colt before she got it?
But it is nice Bobby is still coming through for the guys and I'm kind of hoping we get a Bobby visit this season as it would be interesting to see Bobby's take on Mary and I'm guessing it wouldn't exactly be complimentary from either side - hers that he let her boys hunt and not use what influence he had to get her sons to have normal lives and from him, displeasure about her lack of respect with regard to who her sons and the fact her keeping things from John lead to who John became.
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Post by thesnowleopard on Mar 7, 2017 22:47:21 GMT -5
Okay, folks, enough of the repetitive Mary-bashing. Knock it off or I'll start moving the offending posts to the Dead Horse board for you.
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paro
New Member
Posts: 36
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Post by paro on Mar 8, 2017 12:57:19 GMT -5
While overall I found the episode pretty disappointing, I did cheer for Dean speaking his mind. The pain on Dean's face as he gave up on his dream of a nurturing mother who wants to know her sons and spend time with them - ugh, just heartbreaking. But maybe Dean now having a clearer picture of Mary's nature will help him (and Sam) move forward without sentimental blinders obscuring their judgment. Because we've seen Mary coolly lie and manipulate her sons, put them in danger, in order to get the job done. Even Ketch was impressed. If I were the brothers, I'd be a little worried about hunting with Mary, especially on a LoL job. How could they totally trust her?
(Snowleopard - if this is considered Mary bashing, please move to the appropriate thread. Since I'm new here, I'm still trying to learn the rules of this board and what is/isn't allowed.)
I also thought the scenes between Dean and Mr. Ketch were pretty interesting. The show has obviously tried to parallel the two characters all season but in this episode, we saw the major difference between them: Ketch is a sociopathic killer who has no empathy for humans or monsters while Dean uses his conscience. I wouldnt' be surprised if that doesn't come into play later on. Maybe Dean will refuse to play ball with the LoL and Ketch will be sent out to eliminate him.
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Post by paforrest on Mar 8, 2017 14:07:55 GMT -5
While overall I found the episode pretty disappointing, I did cheer for Dean speaking his mind. The pain on Dean's face as he gave up on his dream of a nurturing mother who wants to know her sons and spend time with them - ugh, just heartbreaking. But maybe Dean now having a clearer picture of Mary's nature will help him (and Sam) move forward without sentimental blinders obscuring their judgement. ... I also thought the scenes between Dean and Mr. Ketch were pretty interesting. The show has obviously tried to parallel the two characters all season but in this episode, we saw the major difference between them: Ketch is a sociopathic killer who has no empathy for humans or monsters while Dean uses his conscience. I wouldnt' be surprised if that doesn't come into play later on. Maybe Dean will refuse to play ball with the LoL and Ketch will be sent out to eliminate him. I would love for the BMoL to realize that Dean is never going to join forces - and I hope he doesn't - and, yes, they set out to eliminate him. Of course, if that happens, one would think maybe Mary and Sam would start to question their allegiance to said organization, but I'm not convinced. The best part of Dean speaking his mind to Mary is that he called her Mary, and not mom. Personally I think, and wish, he'd refer to her that way from now on. If Dabb and Sam Smith don't want Mary to play mom, fine, then she's not - she's just another hunter, and let's start seeing Dean, at the very least, consider her as such. Of course, that's not who Dean is, he's a loyal son to a real fault - and that's just one part of what makes Dean the best Winchester. Sorry, Berens/Dabb/Perez, et. al, but you are way off.
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Post by thesnowleopard on Mar 8, 2017 15:08:24 GMT -5
(Snowleopard - if this is considered Mary bashing, please move to the appropriate thread. Since I'm new here, I'm still trying to learn the rules of this board and what is/isn't allowed.) It's okay. I'm more concerned about the repetitive postings about how awful Mary is and the ridiculous comparisons to John "I staked my kids out for bait" Winchester and Bobby "Suck it up, Princess" Singer as models of wonderful parenting, as well as "The show sucks now, has for years, why is anybody still watching it?" stuff. "John vs. Bobby" and "hate-watching the show" threads always devolved into chaos and sucked up all the energy on the IMDB board. If people want to continue them here, those discussions belong on The Dead Horse Discussion Agency, not on the bright, shiny new episode threads where we can have *new* discussions about new stuff. There's a place for them all laid out on Wayward Children, but it ain't here. For an example of new discussion, how long the LoL would survive after declaring war on Dean Winchester. I'd give them maybe three episodes. That's about how long the Steins got.
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Post by anouck9 on Mar 8, 2017 15:51:44 GMT -5
For an example of new discussion, how long the LoL would survive after declaring war on Dean Winchester. I'd give them maybe three episodes. That's about how long the Steins got. If it goes to war, yeah, not long, especially since I fully believe Dean capable of rallying others hunters on his side. However, like I said in another thread, I'm no longer as confident as I was that the showrunner actually thinks the Lol are bad guys. (which is part of the problem for me) I'm also not too sure of the direction they're going to take Dean, namely if his rejection of Lol is gonna hold (it should, anything else would be quite OOC but look at hat they have Crowley doing...) and also what will be his reasons to reject the Lol (I can see them going for the "unwashed hunter rejectng the posh white hands Lol just cos', rather than the millions others logicals reasons Dean would hav to be wary of them)
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Post by cluelessdrifter on Mar 8, 2017 17:02:59 GMT -5
and also what will be his reasons to reject the Lol (I can see them going for the "unwashed hunter rejectng the posh white hands Lol just cos', rather than the millions others logicals reasons Dean would hav to be wary of them) I think it's going to be because he doesn't agree with them exterminating all the monsters. It has to be. I think it's going to come up soon given how he reacted to Ketch with that vampire last week.
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Post by thesnowleopard on Mar 8, 2017 17:04:31 GMT -5
For an example of new discussion, how long the LoL would survive after declaring war on Dean Winchester. I'd give them maybe three episodes. That's about how long the Steins got. If it goes to war, yeah, not long, especially since I fully believe Dean capable of rallying others hunters on his side. However, like I said in another thread, I'm no longer as confident as I was that the showrunner actually thinks the Lol are bad guys. (which is part of the problem for me) I'm also not too sure of the direction they're going to take Dean, namely if his rejection of Lol is gonna hold (it should, anything else would be quite OOC but look at hat they have Crowley doing...) and also what will be his reasons to reject the Lol (I can see them going for the "unwashed hunter rejectng the posh white hands Lol just cos', rather than the millions others logicals reasons Dean would hav to be wary of them) Previous to this past week, I shared your concerns, though I always keep in mind that Dean is a lead and the LoL are just guest characters. At worst, we'd have to suffer through some glorification of them a la Charlie, or some gratuitous humiliation of Dean a la the Campbells, before their ignominious demise, but they'd eventually go bye-bye and Dean would still be here. So, "Dean outlives them all" is pretty much a foregone conclusion. 11 and a half seasons have taught us that. After this week, though, I'm quite confident "Dean wins" is the end game. He could do it on his own, however the most intriguing bits of the season have been the implication that not only *could* the Brothers lead North America's Hunters, but in a very real sense, they already do. They just didn't realize it. So, it seems more likely Dean will end up organizing Hunters to take down the LoL, save their bacon, or simply replace them. Also, despite some of the fangirling we've had from Hunters over Sam, most Hunters worth their salt would follow Dean if there were a split (notice how the two Hunters who fangirled Sam ended up dead or a traitor). I'm not sure where they're going with Mary and, say, the twins, but she appears to be building up her own network. Whether she would unite that network with that of her sons is a bit up in the air, but she keeps talking about choosing family, did 'fess up last week, and looked pretty disgusted with the LoL this week, so I'm leaning toward unity. Sam...maybe not. He's the one currently holding the idjit Ball. I think a confrontation between Dean and Retch (who is this season's Gordon) is becoming inevitable. Retch thinks they're alike and he's pretty wrong.
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Post by fishpan on Mar 8, 2017 17:29:36 GMT -5
To be honest I have seen others say that once Dean and Sam find out about the deaths of Ketch and the soldiers then that will be the trigger to show them that the mol are bad news.
I don't think they need that. In fact I see the soldiers and Magda's deaths as the writers way to show us, the audience, that the MoL methods are irredeemable. But I understand if people don't trust Dabb with it, I don't really.
But even without knowing about those deaths Sam and Dean should be able to see that there is something wrong with the Brits from the botch vamp job, Ketch's brutality and the statement that Ketch made about Pierce's fate as signs enough to show the Brits aren't worth working with. I know Mick and Ketch kept saying Toni was rogue but her methods are probably not different than those going to be used on Pierce, just she decided that the brothers were maladjusted before the old men did, seeing how she went on about Ruby and Benny. So does that mean she was truly rogue or just she was ahead of schedule with regards to the old men's probably plan with regard to the Winchesters - recruit or deal with.
Right now the only thing I can see causing Dean to work with the Brits is Mary and her black and white view she is helping make the world a better place for her sons when she is not.
And if that is bashing, I'm sorry. I think they are going to make a lot of mileage out of Mary and her black and white view and use her interaction with the BMoL to drag out the drama with regard to Dean and the MoL not being able to fit while Sam is doing whatever they are making Sam do. Because Dean is a loyal son, he will bear more crap from Mick and Ketch for the sake of Mary than he was willing to stomach for Grandpa Shady.
Though does anyone know if Bobby is coming back this season - the name check and reaction was a nice nod and it would be an interesting meeting.
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