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Post by thesnowleopard on Mar 4, 2017 17:05:46 GMT -5
She did...this week. She just spent all that time with Sam.
On the other hand, the reason she was with Sam in the first place was because she reached out to Sam in desperation after the son she had actually been "hanging out" with by text froze her out. There's a subtext here, intended or otherwise, of characters doing the opposite of what they say. Mary says she loves her sons, but avoids them. Sam says he's in Mary's camp, but avoids her. Dean kicks Mary out, then rides to her rescue, anyway.
The one thing that really annoys me is that Dean and Mary's developing relationship should have been highlighted a *lot* more to this point than through a few partially-throwaway scenes involving their looking at their phones. It's clear now they are actually much farther down the road to being a mother and son again than the non-texting scenes imply (Dean didn't just rush in like that because she used to sing "Hey, Jude" to him as a kid), but the show has been so busy with the flashier (and crappier) mytharc elements that it didn't give us enough of that.
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luxshine
Junior Member
Drawing and writing
Posts: 57
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Post by luxshine on Mar 4, 2017 21:39:41 GMT -5
I have to admit, this episode made me wish they just had gone into a 3 month hiatus to give Jensen time to be with his new babies rather than give us Dean-lite episodes because man, he is the only one who saves the subpar writing for me.
This was idjit ball-juggling at it's best. I don't get why Dean forgave Mary because, sorry, she doesn't deserve forgiveness for betraying them (Leaving them, wanting to find herself, SURE. Lying to them, guiding them into a hunt to be used as bait, working with the people who tortured Sam? Nope, sorry, but that's a line I don't like and puts her right there with John and his A+ parenting skills.) At least not after just Dean leaving to steam off for a bit.
Sam getting all the ego stroking and the big Vamp alpha kill? Gives me shades of season 4. Both as the storyline (Oh, yay, Sam teaming up with obvious Bad guys and lying to DEan and planing to coherse Dean again! The Joy), and the writers (Oh, Dean finished off a whole Nest of Vamps? Has managed to withstand the Alpha even as a vampire? No, we can't have Dean doing/having a Storyline that Sam doesn't do better, so now Sam gets to FOOL the Alpha and then kill him. Wooo) so I am really pissed off at this.
Add to that that Sam gets to lie and then berate Dean as if Dean had ALSO lied (the whole "gone off to get a drink" exchange. Dean DID go only to get a drink, THEN got back, THEN left again. Sam just straight out lied) and seriously, I can't stand Berens' writing.
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Post by fishpan on Mar 5, 2017 3:10:43 GMT -5
Snow, I have no idea what the hell they are doing with regard to the relationships with the brothers and Mary, but physically spending time with her sons doesn't seem to be high on their priorities on showing.
What I do think is that there is a germinal of a great idea that could lead to a lot of drama in this episode. However I don't think the writers or the show in its present form can pull it off. They couldn't do it in season 6 and I'm not sure they can do it now.
Has the aims of the British Men of letters (if they are what they say) essentially making the situation with the monsters in the US more dangerous for the brothers and hunters? And what do the brothers do about it.
They have gone to lengths to show that monsters aren't always black and white and the brothers try not to kill monsters simply because they are monsters even if they are a bit unsure about if it is a good idea and even here it was mentioned that the US hunters and monsters acted like it was cops and robbers. Though I still say Emma's death was unwarranted. (Bad kinslayer Sam...Bad)
But the Men of Letters apparently do and so does Mary in the belief they are just dealing with them as a quasi terrorist problem while she holds onto her simplistic idea that you get rid of monsters and the universe will be wonderful. But have they just escalated things from a few bodies and a awkward balance into what is in effect a guerrilla war? Just like the way Samuel and the Campbells' in season 6 kind of made things worse for 5 minutes.
Here the actions of Mary and Ketch and co caused a group of desperate vamps to band together to fight back because they had something to fight back against as previously it would have been an independent hunter so all they had to do at worst was get rid of the problem individual and go to ground and they are kind of safe. But the Men of letters have changed the rules - that doesn't apply anymore. Granted it was the Alpha that organised them (and what a waste to bring him back for this, just like Eve was a waste) but they fought back because of a situation created by the MoL with little to no regard for themselves because they actually had something big to hit back at, an actual structured organisation who seemed to be gunning for them not for what they did but for simply because of what they were, wholesale.
But that also means other monsters could do the same and hit back at the hunters, active or not, for the actions of the men of letters even if without the men of letters they wouldn't harm humans. Which means that you have the moral question for the hunters 'do you essentially join the Nazi's for your own safety when you hate their methods and you know they've caused the situation in the small hope they'll change or do you join the terrorists even though you bristle at what they do?' Because fright or not, Wally's death or not, strategically the MOL can look at those incidents as successes so why change? The lakehouse bodge - they got the gun and rid of a Prince of Hell with one death. The bunker lost personnel but they bagged the rest of the vamps from the MWR and the alpha, possible intel source with Pierce and two thirds of the Winchesters officially on board and the third, well was kind of support adjacent. What exactly have the old men got to complain about the way their american incursion is going? And the vamps/monsters in their heads don't want to go extinct simply for being what they are or if they are going to go that way they have the right to take some of the bastards attacking them with them.
What would have been interesting is if we had found out Pierce's motivation for helping the vamps outside the implications he was just an unreliable weak hunter kind of being paid was something like he had friends in a nest that had previously helped him and he wanted revenge for them.
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Post by thesnowleopard on Mar 5, 2017 13:23:36 GMT -5
I think the issue addressed this week was an elephant in the room inherent in any revival or introduction of a new Men of Letters group--that the old Men of Letters in the U.S. got curb-stomped and exterminated 59 years ago for growing too "uppity" in the supernatural world. And this was despite having a much more secure base than the LoL did this week. Smacking down the Grand Coven in Europe was one thing, but learning how to cure demons in the U.S.? That was crossing a line.
It was therefore inevitable that the LoL would run into similar problems very quickly, and a necessary part of their intro to explain why they still existed at all. Granted, the Alpha was quite arrogant himself and had an elevated opinion of his place in the SPNverse, but I don't think he was wrong about the LoL being left alone because they were in an unimportant backwater and not because they were too strong.
The Brothers, and other Hunters in North America (Asa was in Canada, remember), have spent their entire lives on the front lines. They are still around because they are strong and experienced and canny, and because they have very powerful allies. The King of Hell is romantically obsessed with Dean and an angel calls them family. Plus, they literally have Chuck on their side. That and the decentralized nature of Hunters in North America (an organization that isn't an organization) is how they've survived. The LoL and their toys can't possibly compete.
And yes, it was also inevitable that the LoL would only stir up trouble. There's no way they can secure the U.S., let alone Canada, from even ordinary monsters. All they can do is rouse another Abaddon, which the locals will then have to deal with. This is, after all, how the Men of Letters were introduced--Henry popped up out of nowhere with a Big Bad on his heels.
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Post by katefkndoes on Mar 5, 2017 16:28:57 GMT -5
This season has had zero direction. We are halfway through the season and there is no discernible arc.
Also, Dean was so out of character in this episode it was unreal.
I really think I would have preferred fewer episodes this season.
*Sigh*
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Post by thesnowleopard on Mar 5, 2017 19:35:23 GMT -5
This season has had zero direction. We are halfway through the season and there is no discernible arc. Also, Dean was so out of character in this episode it was unreal. I really think I would have preferred fewer episodes this season. *Sigh* They seem to be floundering a bit without Jensen to kick around whenever they run out of ideas. Also, Dabb is pretty clearly not a good showrunner on a daily basis (we saw similar issues during Gamble's tenure). It's like if Diana Rigg had taken maternity leave in the middle of her Avengers run and they'd tried to write around it. And Jensen didn't even have to carry his twins to term, so the showrunners have even less excuse for dealing with what absence they let him take. I don't think fewer episodes would have helped. I read Dabb and Loflin's comics versions of the show. Believe me, Dabb would just find a way to screw up a shorter season even worse because we wouldn't even get extra chances for some decent MOTWs. You can bet "Regarding Dean" wouldn't have happened in a 13-ep season, for example. What scares me is what if Dabb leaves and they hand it over to the Nep Duo?
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Post by nitar on Mar 6, 2017 0:58:08 GMT -5
At this point honestly? I can't see the Nep Duo as being worse than Dabb - as bad maybe but not worse. Dabb has his head so far up Sam's ass, he can't see anything else - certainly not Dean.
And maybe Carver could come back? He is still listed as Exec Producer?
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Post by thesnowleopard on Mar 6, 2017 1:18:11 GMT -5
Last time I checked, he was.
I really don't want the Nep Duo to get any more power than they have, already. They're responsible for most of the show's current LOL!canon.
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Post by frozen_delight on Mar 6, 2017 3:08:29 GMT -5
Last time I checked, he was. I really don't want the Nep Duo to get any more power than they have, already. They're responsible for most of the show's current LOL!canon. Honestly, at this point I'll happily take the Duo over Berens or Perez. I thought that Glynn and Yockey both improved in their second ep, displaying a better grasp of the show, but so far Perez has shown zero inclination of getting to know the show he's being paid to write for. As for Berens - I have no idea what happened to him this season. First the epic stupidity of 'Rock Never Dies', now this soulcrushingly bad episode... It mystifies me how he ever managed to write amazing scripts like 'The Executioner's Song', 'Our Little World' or 'Alex Annie Alexis Ann'. Personally, I don't want Dabb to leave the show, because I really like his writing. He's just a terrible showrunner. Carver needs to come back, plain and simple.
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Post by thesnowleopard on Mar 6, 2017 3:23:08 GMT -5
I think a lot of people are wishing Carver would come back right about now.
The problem with writers, especially new or uneven ones, is that they need a lot of guidance from the showrunner. So, if the showrunner isn't so hot, the writers don't do so well, either. Especially if their stuff needs a lot of revision.
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Post by fishpan on Mar 6, 2017 5:36:40 GMT -5
I think Dabb is in the same position that Gamble was in. They have ideas but not the experience to actually run a show and they aren't getting the guidance or support to get their ideas fully realised.
Hence the neoptism duo getting to play with the back up arc of Lucifer and Crowley. I kind of get the feeling that Singer is playing the angles as he is the one that is truly in charge.
The men of letters as I said can be a really interesting concept and with Mary in play with them the brothers can't compartmentalise like they could with Samuel's actions. But if needs fleshing out in a lot of ways with regard to continuity. Have the British men of letters essentially been banned from the rest of Europe?
The Thule are kicking around in Berlin, Eileen's family were killed in Ireland, Sam could track the Book of the damned on the internet to Italy and the Steins mentioned family in the old country. But the British men of letters are essentially playing with monsters in the US??? Why? Their one go at a demon we saw was more about the colt than the actual demon and its the cosmic players that were the ones that were mostly responsible for the world ending events. Where are the questions about those?
Carver at least had enough experience under his belt to push his own will even if we didn't always like the results
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Post by aduty1 on Mar 6, 2017 8:16:00 GMT -5
I would love for Carver to come back he actually seemed to care about Dean. I think he lost interest in Season 11 when he got his new show and unofficially handed the reigns over to Dabb and Singer. I prefer Dabb over the Nep Duo though, they would just keep churning out boring ghost episodes. I don't know if Dabb has a master plan at all. It seems like they are just throwing things against a wall. The Gamble/Dabb comparison is fair. I've gotten a strong Season 6 vibe from this year and I hope the CW has noticed they might be having another Gamble situation. I think the ratings will tell the tale. If the Dean-lite episode leads in to a similar rating or better this week then no one at the CW will care if Dean is in an episode or not. If the ratings go down to a .5 then maybe someone will wake up, step in and shift some of the focus back to Dean. This has been the first week I can remember lately where I haven't watched a promo or looked at any photos of the upcoming episode. I really don't see any good episodes on the horizon and the one episode left for Glynn is a co-write with Berens. I really hope that there is something that comes up that can get me excited about the show again but I haven't been this uninterested since season 7.
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Post by sleepersix on Mar 6, 2017 13:11:30 GMT -5
I really didn't like how the writers had Dean equate his expectations that Mary NOT lie and betray him to expecting her to "make him lunch" and "kiss him goodnight." She's been treating her sons horribly, and that has nothing to do with not making their lunches or tucking them in at night. That just seemed like an overly simplistic explanation/apology. Like it was somehow sexist of Dean to be hurt in this situation.
I'm hoping it's Dean just trying to do what he thinks is the mature thing, but still secretly feeling hurt by Mary's actions.
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Post by cluelessdrifter on Mar 6, 2017 18:57:27 GMT -5
I really didn't like how the writers had Dean equate his expectations that Mary NOT lie and betray him to expecting her to "make him lunch" and "kiss him goodnight." She's been treating her sons horribly, and that has nothing to do with not making their lunches or tucking them in at night. That just seemed like an overly simplistic explanation/apology. Like it was somehow sexist of Dean to be hurt in this situation. I'm hoping it's Dean just trying to do what he thinks is the mature thing, but still secretly feeling hurt by Mary's actions. I think for me it was more that Mary thought that's what he wanted, because at the start of the episode she said she wasn't just a Mom. He was picking up from that point and saying that isn't what the problem was. It ensured they were on the same page, and she was listening without getting confused when he made it clear he really didn't agree with her decision, just her right to make the decision. He didn't drive home the reasons he was upset about the lying and her not trying to form any kind of a meaningful connection with them, because he had kind of already done that. He was being the bigger person. What I find problematic is that Mary seems to be doing this to give her sons a normal life. She's making the decision for them and yet doesn't want to play the Mom *. *of children with grown men
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Post by sleepersix on Mar 6, 2017 22:33:39 GMT -5
I like your perspective on this. And I agree that no matter how you look at it, Dean was being the bigger person.
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