paro
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Post by paro on Apr 24, 2017 21:22:56 GMT -5
Supernatural Boss Talks Winchesters as Generals, Cas' Return and Deadly Fight By Vlada Gelman / April 24 2017, 4:30 PM PDT After a brief break, Supernatural continues this Thursday (The CW, 8/7c) with a new episode — but for some of Dean and Sam’s pals, it may soon be the end of the road. When the battle between the hunters and the British Men of Letters starts to cost lives, the brothers must step up as leaders in order to protect their loved ones, executive producer Andrew Dabb previews below. The EP also teases Mary’s response to being betrayed by Mr. Ketch & Co., Cas’ fight to protect the Winchesters and more. TVLINE | Mick is dead, and the Brits want all the American hunters killed. So what do the upcoming episodes have in store for the Winchesters and their tentative partnership with the Men of Letters?It’s obviously a little strained. [The British Men of Letters] want everybody dead. But as they are a massive organization and very corporate in their own way, they’re going about it in a very organizational, methodical way. In Episode 20 [and] 21 into our end run, they start to make those moves and, to be a little vague, people that Sam and Dean know and love pay the price. It’s a way to take this organization and bring the fight home for Sam and Dean and force them to take a role, which they haven’t done that much. Outside of a few friends, they don’t have a lot of contact with the wider hunter community. So it forces our guys into a leadership role. They’ve been soldiers for a long time — and not that they don’t do their fair share of fighting — but toward the end of the season, they’re becoming generals. They’re taking a much stronger role in the wider hunter community as the Brits take the fight to them. Supernatural SpoilersTVLINE | As this fight is going on between the two sides, where does Mary fall, especially considering what recently transpired between her and Mr. Ketch?Once things go bad, she feels deeply responsible. She got her kids into this. She brought them in. Once the weight of what happened hits her in a couple weeks, she has all her illusions shattered. We’re not creating a scenario where Mary is bending over backwards to defend the British Men of Letters [or] what they’re doing. But all three of our Winchesters realize the mistake they’ve made, and as soon as they realize it, they start to take action to basically get the hell out of there, to varying degrees of success. Mary, more than Sam and Dean, is on the inside, so her journey out may be a little bit more complicated. TVLINE | Cas has been in Heaven for a little while now. How will he re-enter the action? And is he any different? When Cas comes back [in this Thursday’s episode], we’re going to get a lot of clarity in terms of not only why he’s been in Heaven for so long, but his own point of view on why he went. Some people are looking at it like, “He went to Heaven because he’s choosing angels over Sam and Dean,” and things like that. What’s going to come out very strongly when he comes back is that what he’s doing, he views as doing for our guys. That’s been a big part of the season overall: Sam and Dean have proven themselves as heroes, certainly to everyone around them. So whether it’s Cas or Crowley or Mary or Mick until his unfortunate demise or anyone else in our story, these are people who realize Sam and Dean’s importance. Sam and Dean have always been willing to sacrifice for each other. Now we’re seeing a lot of people around them that are willing to sacrifice for Sam and Dean, and it’s really about building a sense of community. So from Cas’ point of view, everything he’s been doing has been for Sam and Dean. When he comes back in, that will be made pretty clear, and then the question is: Where does he go from there? Once he comes back in, he’s going after Kelly. Once he comes into contact with her [and] her kid, a lot of his misconceptions may fall away. A big part of his time in Heaven has been gathering information, but not reorienting his thinking to the point where he’s against Sam and Dean or anything like that. It’s more like having moments of clarity in terms of why he’s doing this and the price he, personally, is willing to pay to keep Sam and Dean alive or to keep them from experiencing pain. TVLINE | Kelly has escaped again. Meanwhile in Hell, Lucifer and Crowley’s sparring has been building and building. How will that storyline intensify as you head into the end of the season?The ticking clock over our final run is the birth of [Lucifer’s] kid. We’ve pinpointed it to late May, coincidentally when our episode airs. As that gets closer and closer, everyone is going to activate more and more. A lot of the moves [the British Men of Letters are] making right now are because they know that something big is coming, the Nephilim is coming. So the reverberations of it are starting to be felt. As we dive deeper into the season, it’s going to be felt more and more and more by all of our different players. tvline.com/2017/04/24/supernatural-spoilers-season-12-finale-deaths/
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Post by thesnowleopard on Apr 25, 2017 2:06:43 GMT -5
My comment on the interview:
""As that gets closer and closer, everyone is going to activate more and more. A lot of the moves [the British Men of Letters are] making right now are because they know that something big is coming, the Nephilim is coming."
Really? Because in the season I've been watching, the LoL haven't the first clue about Lucifer, or what the angels are up to, let alone Kelly and her Demon Baby. They have, in fact, been remarkably clueless and bumbling in everything they've done. Murderous, to be sure, but also as stupid as they are arrogant (and they are pretty arrogant).
Oh, and as if this interview weren't depressing enough, we have more fridging of "beloved" recurring characters to look forward to! Oh, yay!
This season has been so awful. Bad pacing. Stupid villains. A few good ideas (like Mary coming back and the Brothers being leaders in the Hunter community) buried under a mountain of crap and nonsensical character motivations. At this point, I'm just waiting for the season to be over and hoping that Dabb and Singer will be fired so we can start fresh next season."
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Post by anouck9 on Apr 25, 2017 6:17:03 GMT -5
.....Sigh....
"So it forces our guys into a leadership role. They’ve been soldiers for a long time — and not that they don’t do their fair share of fighting — but toward the end of the season, they’re becoming generals. They’re taking a much stronger role in the wider hunter community as the Brits take the fight to them."
Based on how that season has been going, I'm guessing Sam is the General, and Dean the grunt on the ground, who will get knocked out in the very beginning of the episode... Because he can't even get a kill those days. And given that I'm pretty sure that Ketch will be Mary's sacred privilege to kill...
"But all three of our Winchesters realize the mistake they’ve made"
I was worried that Dean would be written as insufferable with his "I told you so", so he could look as unsympathetic as possible to mlake Sam and MAry look better about their poor choices. But no, business as usual, held accountable even though he was the only one saying no, no way, no how...
Well... at least the hiatus this year will actually be a welcome respite from all that crap
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Post by aduty1 on Apr 25, 2017 6:29:40 GMT -5
This season has been so awful. Bad pacing. Stupid villains. A few good ideas (like Mary coming back and the Brothers being leaders in the Hunter community) buried under a mountain of crap and nonsensical character motivations. At this point, I'm just waiting for the season to be over and hoping that Dabb and Singer will be fired so we can start fresh next season." I did my part and e-mailed Pedowitz but I fear we are stuck with Dabb and Singer. Dabb talks a good game in the interview but I have lost all faith that he will deliver anything. Hopefully, the strike will give Jensen time to recharge his batteries and maybe he will step up again over Dean's direction. If there are enough indications that season 12 was a failure then maybe they will reset next year and course correct. Again, don't have much faith that any of that will happen. Seems like the best days are behind us.
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Post by saltgunempty on Apr 25, 2017 19:08:49 GMT -5
All I want to hear from the spoilers is that the Brits will mysteriously turn to dust and next season can be solving the mysterious demise of the idiots or pretending they never happened. Instead, I suspect that this means Dean will miss the action because he had a nap and got left behind but he'll be blamed for any stupid garbage the others pull.
I'd also argue that Dean has led before and Sam has a history of thinking he's a leader. Those two haven't been soldiers for a long time at the very least.
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Post by thesnowleopard on Apr 25, 2017 21:15:00 GMT -5
What is infuriating is that the whole reason Mary is alive in the first place is because Dean represented the entire universe in negotiating a peace between Chuck and His own freakin' sister. Dean did that. All by himself. And Chuck's response was basically, Well, of course. You're the Firewall. I'm leaving you in charge.
And then Chuck's sister, who was grateful to this representative of All Her Brother's Creation for finally giving her a sympathetic ear and what she'd wanted all along, gave Dean something impossible. She gave him back his lost, much-loved mother.
That's why we have Mary this season.
But does anybody remember any of this? Well, whoever does, they don't seem to include either of the showrunners or any of the writers because none of them has ever bothered to follow that up in any significant way. I'll admit I felt a certain amount of dread when Dabb was trolling on last summer about how they were going to dial things back down to a more "human" level. I feared that this was really Bullshit Speak for "We're going to use this as an excuse to totally ignore Dean this year." I really, really hoped they wouldn't just drop only the biggest plot they had ever had like a hot potato and just move on as if nothing of any significance had happened.
Sadly, that is exactly what they did. If anything, they've done even worse than I feared.
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Post by saltgunempty on Apr 25, 2017 23:10:03 GMT -5
I'm sure Dabb and Singer deeply regret Dean having such a big role in that finale and at best are pretending it didn't happen. They've also just made a bad season with an awful new addition to really showcase this brilliance. The sucky thing is that if it was decently done I'd actually like a more scaled down season and maybe that could have been a time to expand the hunting world with solid characters. It could have served the show well but I guess they needed to indulge their posh sides.
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Post by anouck9 on Apr 26, 2017 5:45:30 GMT -5
What is infuriating is that the whole reason Mary is alive in the first place is because Dean represented the entire universe in negotiating a peace between Chuck and His own freakin' sister. Dean did that. All by himself. And Chuck's response was basically, Well, of course. You're the Firewall. I'm leaving you in charge.And then Chuck's sister, who was grateful to this representative of All Her Brother's Creation for finally giving her a sympathetic ear and what she'd wanted all along, gave Dean something impossible. She gave him back his lost, much-loved mother. That's why we have Mary this season. But does anybody remember any of this? Well, whoever does, they don't seem to include either of the showrunners or any of the writers because none of them has ever bothered to follow that up in any significant way. I'll admit I felt a certain amount of dread when Dabb was trolling on last summer about how they were going to dial things back down to a more "human" level. I feared that this was really Bullshit Speak for "We're going to use this as an excuse to totally ignore Dean this year." I really, really hoped they wouldn't just drop only the biggest plot they had ever had like a hot potato and just move on as if nothing of any significance had happened. Sadly, that is exactly what they did. If anything, they've done even worse than I feared. Well... I guess that SPN version of fake news, since Dabb's dearest sweetheart Perez said it in his episode via Crowley "It took a act of Chuck to stop the Darkness"... So we obviously dreamied this finale, and Mary is back because... well they didn't written the new version yet. A escape pod in Heaven maybe? (bitter bitter sarcasm...)
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Post by paforrest on Apr 26, 2017 6:17:26 GMT -5
What is infuriating is that the whole reason Mary is alive in the first place is because Dean represented the entire universe in negotiating a peace between Chuck and His own freakin' sister. Dean did that. All by himself. And Chuck's response was basically, Well, of course. You're the Firewall. I'm leaving you in charge.And then Chuck's sister, who was grateful to this representative of All Her Brother's Creation for finally giving her a sympathetic ear and what she'd wanted all along, gave Dean something impossible. She gave him back his lost, much-loved mother. That's why we have Mary this season. But does anybody remember any of this? Well, whoever does, they don't seem to include either of the showrunners or any of the writers because none of them has ever bothered to follow that up in any significant way. I'll admit I felt a certain amount of dread when Dabb was trolling on last summer about how they were going to dial things back down to a more "human" level. I feared that this was really Bullshit Speak for "We're going to use this as an excuse to totally ignore Dean this year." I really, really hoped they wouldn't just drop only the biggest plot they had ever had like a hot potato and just move on as if nothing of any significance had happened. Sadly, that is exactly what they did. If anything, they've done even worse than I feared. Well... I guess that SPN version of fake news, since Dabb's dearest sweetheart Perez said it in his episode via Crowley "It took a act of Chuck to stop the Darkness"... So we obviously dreamied this finale, and Mary is back because... well they didn't written the new version yet. A escape pod in Heaven maybe? (bitter bitter sarcasm...) I still wonder what the original version of Dabb's finale script was before four actors called him with complaints? I continue to believe it was probably 90% Lady Skank, 10% the cast, and I doubt seriously Dean was much involved given how little he was involved overall in season 11 - which continues to confirm my belief that Dabb had been in charge since episode 2 last year. But even if Dabb somehow always intended to grudgingly allow Dean to meet with the two Chucks, since it was the absolute least he could do for Jensen seeing as the absolute least is what his character got all year - it's just that much worse this year - it's very clear that Dabb never meant for Dean to really matter, as his right hand douche Perez spouts the company line as proof. As for Dabb's version of Ugly Mary, she bears so little resemblance to Kripke's Mary that it seems the old prop pic of Mary and little Dean was viewed by Dabb solely as a one-dimensional device for bringing his OC into the cast - period. He never intended for Mary's return to have anything to do with either brother, really, and certainly much less Dean. Dean and his picture were just a means to an end to bring this character in to upstage the original Winchesters. Yes, I think Mary would have been liked a whole lot better than she is right now, which is very little and for damn good reason, if her returning had some freaking thing to do with Dean. But it doesn't, and Dabb never intended it that way. There is nothing in this article that interests me in the slightest.
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Post by thesnowleopard on Apr 26, 2017 15:21:53 GMT -5
Well... I guess that SPN version of fake news, since Dabb's dearest sweetheart Perez said it in his episode via Crowley "It took a act of Chuck to stop the Darkness"... So we obviously dreamied this finale, and Mary is back because... well they didn't written the new version yet. A escape pod in Heaven maybe? (bitter bitter sarcasm...) Perez probably should have watched last season, then. Crowley wasn't present in that garden. No one was, aside from Dean, Amara and then Chuck. And there is no evidence that Dean or anyone else ever told him (it's implied Dean filled Mary and then Sam in, but we don't know exactly how much they know, either). So, Crowley doesn't actually know who or what saved the universe. He can only infer and in that case, he done inferred wrong. The season itself was actually pretty Dean-centric. It was somewhat clumsily handled in parts and sometimes shelved Dean as an obvious final deus ex machina, but Carver's intent for Dean was straightforward and a major mystery about Dean (his role in the SPNverse) was finally cleared up. Chuck and Amara were supporting characters in *Dean's* story, not the other way round. Now, I understand that we can't have that kind of epic story every season and that following up with a whole season of characters fawning over Dean being the Firewall would be all kinds of ugh (this new role would far more likely make him a target than an object of worship). But this was a major mystery to the rest of the SPNverse. Every single other character would have questions that only Dean was left to answer. It would be a thread that would need to be addressed, either within the first few episodes or strung out over the whole season. Instead, Dabb simply dropped it. He apparently thought he could drop this absolutely huge plot point and have an entire cast of characters say, "Move along! Nothing to see here!" Which made every single character not-named-Dean--the only one who had a vested interest in handwaving the whole thing--look like a total idjit. The LoL? Completely sabotaged from the get-go as a bunch of murderous, bumbling, self-aggrandizing amateurs because they showed no interest in getting to the bottom of the mystery of what happened to the Sun. You know, the universe-shaking mystery that was right in front of their faces. But nope. No interest whatsoever, despite having the guy with the answers, in chains, right in front of them. Lucifer? Confirmed as exactly the sort of jealous, self-absorbed twat-waffle who would start acting out in front of Dean the way he used to act out in front of Big Daddy, having learned precisely nothing from last year. Oh, yay! Let's have a whole season of that! Crowley? Still whiny and clueless about...well...everything. That Lucifer is plotting behind his back. The source of his romantic obsession with Dean. Why he's still mad at his mother. Sam? Took the news about whatever Dean told him about not dying in that garden remarkably well and then just ignored it. Remember that this was the guy who was devastated at the end of last season because he thought his brother had blown himself up to save the universe and everybody was celebrating like "Dean who?" But nope. Dean comes back. We get all of two lines of "Oh, hey, you're alive" and some offscreen exposition, and it was never revisited. At first, I was relieved that we at least didn't have the Brothers fighting and Sam lying, anymore. But they've even brought that back. I can see Castiel letting it roll off his back, since he's half a billion years old and has seen some pretty epic shit, but he could at least have bothered to bring the other angels up to speed. Like, "Hi! I saw Chuck. He's alive and off on a roadtrip with our aunt. They should be back at some point. In the meantime, Dean Winchester [insert "Sam and Dean" or "The Humans," if you insist] is in charge." Like that. But nope. We get some weird storyline about Joshua that has gone precisely nowhere for half a season, instead. Not sure what to say about Jody. Did she just not make any connection or try to connect with the two guys she knew were experts on apocalypses about what happened to the Sun a few months back? I get her adopted kids are a bit self-absorbed, but come on. The only two characters I can give a pass to on this (besides Dean, who has acted with a lot less self-hatred and more presence this season) are Mary and Rowena. Mary got drop-kicked into the middle of all this after 30 years. She didn't see the Sun dim. It would take her a very long time to get up to speed enough on everything else to wonder about her eldest and his role in that, let alone the real reason she was brought back (thought it's bizarre she's hardly had any conversation with Dean about it). The bad writing about her involves the long absences and over-emphasis on making her a badass Hunter over her being a mother. Rowena is the only one who's acted at all appropriately to the situation in any active way. We've been shown that she has had an epiphany about her entire life and "Regarding Dean" showed her starting to view Dean in a whole new light. It was subtle, but I'm okay with subtle. On the one hand, I feel as though that episode should have been given to Mary instead of Rowena, since we needed an episode in which Mary reconciled her view of Dean as her "little man" with Dean as a hardened adult who inadvertently resurrected her, and Dean was very childlike in a lot of that episode. On the other, it's one of the few things they've gotten right this season, so maybe just leave that one as is and have a re-do in another episode with Mary.
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Post by anouck9 on Apr 26, 2017 16:15:09 GMT -5
The bad writing about her involves the long absences and over-emphasis on making her a badass Hunter over her being a mother. I think what pisses me off the most about that is that I can't decide if Dabb and some of his writers are mysoginistic assbutt, or they thought they would do a strong female character with Mary, and then messed her up completly with their bias. I mean, imagine the writing session : "Ok, so we're gonna have Mary be a badass. So first, she doesn't cook, because badass women don't cook right?" And everyone else is just "yeah!Genius!She doesn't cook, that will show them!" Then later: "Oh, and she's a woman with her own needs and wants, so she's gonna have a life outside of her sons, with her own activities, and casual sex too" And everyone : "yeah, let's hook her up with that LOL guy!" Now don't get me wrong, I don't care that she doesn't cook, and I don't care about her sleeping with Ketch (although she's got a crappy taste in men, and Dean hooking up is treated usually less sympathetico but whatever...) But the complete disconnect with her sons, that does not make her something else in addition to being their mother, that makes her look like someone who sees a chance to wipe the state clean, and writes her sons off. I know that's not what they're going for, but that's sometimes what it looks. And I don't understand it, because they manage to mostly build it with Jody, who has a job, a sex life (Asa), a job, and still manages to care for Alex and Claire... And she even cooks! I think Perez made a point of saying he didn't watch a lot of episodes, but you would think that the finale of the previous season would be one of them... We probably won't have any story for Dean as long as Dabb/Singer are around, and since the rest is wholly uninspiring...Kind of depressed right now!
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Post by thesnowleopard on Apr 26, 2017 18:08:53 GMT -5
I think we should go with "misogynist assbutt" because:
1. Look at how they wrote Toni the Twat, a mother and torturer. Look at how they wrote her butch henchwoman. Look at the evil headmistress. All of the LoL women are vicious stereotypes.
2. Rowena. Overall, I've liked her development this season and found her very sympathetic toward her grandson. What I don't quite get is how viciously she rejected her son at the end of the episode. While that was in character for last season, it didn't fit with her story arc this season.
3. The whole "Mary is badass because she doesn't cook and sleeps around" thing kinda says it all about what the writers think of women. I can't say I'm shocked about Dabb, since I've read those comics he did with Loflin. But it also says a whole lot about their opinion of Dean, considering he's a superlative cook. We can also question whether Mary's sleeping with Retch is intended to be positive when Dean's promiscuity got mocked as recently as last episode.
Jody did become sympathetic...eventually. It only took several episodes and three seasons ("Time After Time After Time," to be exact), not to mention some weird crush on Bobby. It definitely didn't happen overnight.
Perez should have just sat down and binged the show. He's getting paid for it, after all, and it's not as though there's an official bible. He could also have run through the season companions and SuperWiki (though the latter has some fanon in it), which also has links to transcripts. Watching just a few episodes to prep for a show where you're a regular staff writer doesn't cut it. Four episodes in a season? That's almost $120 thousand in a year. Binging or research is worth it.
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Post by saltgunempty on Apr 26, 2017 23:18:56 GMT -5
Misogynistic assbutt and bad at their jobs. The thing with Mary is that her role as a mother could have been interesting. Not all women are that perfect maternal figure or anywhere close to it and the memories of her as a mother are from a four year old Dean or her before having kids in the timetravel episodes. The contrast and realization of Mary the character vs the symbol could have been good. How she changed after dying and staying dead for so long only to be brought back; we've seen that really screw with characters. What she wanted to get out of this freak occurrence of a second chance and how she handled it. How she figured out who she is in a world where her kids are adults and so much has changed in too of that. They could have had Mary the hunter trump Mary the mother without it being so clunky and poorly done. But, no, douchey hunter it is.
they just wrote her as a fairly shitty human being who can't be bothered to really try with her last connections to this world. Some dumb idea idea of what makes a character badass and assuming that will also mean likeable. This isn't a new kind of fail for the show but it grates. She did manage to have a part in dragging them into the Buffoons of Letters, though. Awful.
perez could have just gone on a wiki binge and done well enough. Chuck only knows what he did instead. Useless.
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Post by thesnowleopard on Apr 26, 2017 23:34:10 GMT -5
Perez annoys the hell out of me. Most of this show's writers have always had this shitty, unprofessional attitude when interviewed and it goes right back to Kripke. I may just be scraping by as a pro writer, so I guess being professional doesn't make you rich, but I would think that if I'd got a staff job where my take-home for writing four episodes in a season was $108 thousand minimum (never mind what I got for signing on exclusively as staff), the absolute least I could do for prep was binge the episodes and rustle up my own show bible. Maybe I'd be vague on some details, but at least I'd have the general layout of the show's canon and tone down pat, and a good idea of what had already been done.
It pisses me off whenever someone gets paid a lot of money to be an unprofessional assbutt. If you'll pardon my not-French. I don't mind people getting paid a lot of money for a job, but do it right.
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Post by saltgunempty on Apr 27, 2017 0:47:35 GMT -5
My ego, pride, fear of punishment, ambition, sense of professionalism, maturity, call it whatever would dictate that I'd put effort in. Something would kick in because if you're going to do something then do it right. Perez has that entitled slacker pride vibe going on and it's in a time when the internet makes everything he'd need readily available. He does the least and gets rewarded for it, and that's rarely a likeable trait. He's not some accomplished writer who's mailing it in either, he should be putting in the work. I don't think it's unique to him but it's ridiculous.
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